New Chinese Carrier

[mikeo80]

I have been reading about the launch and sea trials of the PRC's first carrier.

From some of the pictures I have seen, this thing is an odd looking duck.

Front sloping ramp like HMS Invincible class carriers.

What looks like side mount catapult launchers like USS Nimitz class.

It's like the PRC could not make up its' mind on what to build.

Also, no mention in articles if this thing is oil or a nuclear driven ship.

IIRC all active US carriers are now nuclear.

My $0.02

Mike

[cavtroop]

It's the old Russian carrier 'Riga' or Ukranian 'Varyag':

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_aircraft_carrier_Varyag

[Matt Wiser]

You can bet that Pacific Fleet will be keeping an eye on her. Subs following her to get acoustic signature, hull photos, etc once she sails outside PRC territorial waters, for one thing. P-3s flying close is another. Not to mention that the U.S. allies in the region will be watching this as well-and maybe start their own carrier programs (the ROKs and JMSDF may go the "Harrier-carrier" route with something that can support F-35B operations). And every sub driver in the Western Pacific, whether USN, ROKN, JMSDF, Taiwanese, etc. will look at that ship and be thinking "target." Remember that every sub driver, regardless of what Navy they are in, views all surface ships as the enemy.

[Mohoender]

Some sources also claim that two more carriers are under construction. Anyway, China has stated that it intends to have three carriers (to match ROK and Japan navies). New class of LPD are also being launched.

China's obvious intention is to build a navy that will allow it to have some projection capability but with no intention to compete with the US Navy. What would be the point

Something else is to take into account, China (like Persia) has not attacked any foreign power in more than 3000 years. Why would this change

[Legbreaker]

Something else is to take into account, China (like Persia) has not attacked any foreign power in more than 3000 years. Why would this change

While not saying that they have any interest at all in offensive actions (besides against Taiwan and Nepal and very local areas), it's worth mentioning that the China of today is completely different to that of most of the last 3,000 years. Communist China is a relative newcomer to the scene with the last 60 years or so not much more than a drop in the historical ocean of the region. Who knows what the current generation, or more importantly, the coming generation of rulers have in mind...

[95th Rifleman]

While not saying that they have any interest at all in offensive actions (besides against Taiwan and Nepal and very local areas), it's worth mentioning that the China of today is completely different to that of most of the last 3,000 years. Communist China is a relative newcomer to the scene with the last 60 years or so not much more than a drop in the historical ocean of the region. Who knows what the current generation, or more importantly, the coming generation of rulers have in mind...

People tend to make too much of Chinese communism, it goes back to the cold war when everything red was bad.

The basic chinese culture and attitude hasn't changed for 3000 years, they favour buffer zones around china that can give them time to react to hostile actions (like Korea and Taiwan) but favour an economic approach to empire building, they always have. The rise of China today just shows that they are sticking to their old methods of economic domination as opposed to military expansion.

The chinese are not stupid.

[dragoon500ly]

While it is something that the various intelligence agencies and the Navy will be keeping a close eye on, from an offensive point of view, its not much of a threat.

Please consider that with a force of three carriers, the PRC will, most likely have one in port for repair/maintenance, one working up (training) or recovering from sea duty, and one at sea. I can see surges with two carriers at sea but it would be doubtful if they can support all three at sea for anything more than short periods of time.

[Mohoender]

While it is something that the various intelligence agencies and the Navy will be keeping a close eye on, from an offensive point of view, its not much of a threat.

Agree. However, it will fill an important gap in Chinese defensive capability. It will strengthen their regional defense and allow them to protect their commercial shipping against piracy and terrorist threats.

It will also allow them to take an acitve part in future international operations, seriously increasing their diplomatic weight. As soon as China gets a projection capability I bet that they might be less opposed to international military operations.

[dragoon500ly]

The PRC's carrier is the former Russian "Varyag", second of the Kuznetsov-class.

Accordinging to "Combat Fleets of the World"; full load displacement is 67,000 tons, she has 4 sets of boilers/steam tubines that deliver 200,000 shp and gives the ship a max speed of 32 knots. Like the previous Kiev-class, the Kuznetsov carries a heavy armament of 16 SS-N-19 Shipwreck SSMs (reloadable!!!), 24 SA-N-9 VLS SAM (each VLS capable of launching up to 384 SAMs!), 8 CADS-1 CIWS (8 tube laucher for SA-N-11 SAMs and 2 30mm gatlings),6 AK-630 CIWS 30mm gatling guns as well as 2 RBU-12000 ASW RL (10 barrels). Air group consists of 24 Su-27 Flanker and 9-12 Helix-A and -C ASW/AEW helicopters.

Sooooo, just what does this all mean

The PRC's design will carry heavy SSM and SAM armament, well in excess of any US carrier. But the weapons loadout comes at a heavy price. The real weapon of any carrier is not the number of missiles it can carry, but the size of her air group and her ability to maintain that air group for extended operations.

This was the real weakspot of the Kiev and Kuznet-classes, they are incapable of fielding large air groups and they do not have the on-board resources to maintain their aircraft or the magazine/fuel tankage to support the aircraft for more than 3-5 days.

Most likely, their operational role will be that of fleet air defense, early warning and anti-submarine warfare.

Of course, this is all conjecture, there has been no reliable, released info on their armament/air group. I talked with a couple of air dales in my office and they are of the opinion that the PRC's carrier will very likely be a near-copy of the Soviets, at least as far as its armament/air group mix. Even removing the SSMs and many of the SAMs will only free up enough space to increase the air group to 45-55 aircraft.

[Panther Al]

It seams that many are taking a serious look at this new Chinese carrier: the wall street journal has a front page above the fold article on it. Dunno if it's on the free side of their Internet page, but worth peeking at.

[Targan]

Dunno if it's on the free side of their Internet page, but worth peeking at.

I don't know if that was an intentional pun on your part Panther Al, but thanks for the LOL either way

[Fusilier]

...from an offensive point of view, its not much of a threat.

It's a significant threat. When your not looking at it like a no holds barred WW3 apocalypse between the world's superpowers.

Instead of comparing it that of the US navy's carriers, consider the local nations and how the purchase of a single old diesel electric sub or handful of fighter jets has been enough to increase tensions in the past.

If you are Southeast Asian or from the Philippines for example, this is a rather big deal.

[Benjamin]

Something else is to take into account, China (like Persia) has not attacked any foreign power in more than 3000 years. Why would this change

Really Ask the Vietnamese as recently as 1979 about that. And while I have no problem with China enlarging its own military to better fit her role as a global economic power, her immediate neighbors have every reason to be wary of her growing power.

Benjamin

[Mohoender]

Really Ask the Vietnamese as recently as 1979 about that. And while I have no problem with China enlarging its own military to better fit her role as a global economic power, her immediate neighbors have every reason to be wary of her growing power.

Benjamin

It was an answer to Vietnam's invasion of Cambodia a year earlier and China withdrew after it. It is a border clash more than a war. In any ways can it qualify as an invasion war (by invasion war, I mean a war in which the invader intend to gain territory). To this, you can add, the Chinese involvement in the Korean war. China is backing its allies. This is quite normal even if these allies are questionable.

Try to take Tibet from Chinese rule and you can expect a full scale war with China.

[Mohoender]

Accordinging to "Combat Fleets of the World"; full load displacement is 67,000 tons, she has 4 sets of boilers/steam tubines that deliver 200,000 shp and gives the ship a max speed of 32 knots. Like the previous Kiev-class, the Kuznetsov carries a heavy armament of 16 SS-N-19 Shipwreck SSMs (reloadable!!!), 24 SA-N-9 VLS SAM (each VLS capable of launching up to 384 SAMs!), 8 CADS-1 CIWS (8 tube laucher for SA-N-11 SAMs and 2 30mm gatlings),6 AK-630 CIWS 30mm gatling guns as well as 2 RBU-12000 ASW RL (10 barrels). Air group consists of 24 Su-27 Flanker and 9-12 Helix-A and -C ASW/AEW helicopters.

This figures cannot apply to the Shi Lang (not exactly at least). Don't forget than Varyag had been delivered without weaponry, navigation systems and propelling systems. There might be some significant differences.

I agree with what you say about the defensive roles of such carriers but utside of US carriers this is true of any current carrier. Still an airgroup of 30 aircrafts plus around 10 helicopters is more than enough to make your point when your purpose is to defend commercial lanes and be acitve in an international intervention. The focus on ASW warfare is, however, a misunderstanding, helicopters being far better fitted to this task than aircrafts.

The Kuznetsov design is more than a match for ships such as the Indian carriers, the Chakri Naruebet, the Hiei-class, the Sao Paulo, the Charles de Gaulle, the Invincible. It still remains a match for the future Queen Elizabeth.

Of course, it cannot compete with the US carriers but why would you commit suicide by declzring war to the USA when you are big enough not to be attacked by this same USA and when a far better option is to trade with US