London / Mob behaviour

[natehale1971]

I knew this wouold come up, it always does. So I'll just say this..

Fusillier look at the landry list off 'Crimes' that an you get executed in those countries. I was expecting someone to bring that up. They use the death penality for damn near anything... adultry, execution. homosexuality, execution. being seen in public with a man who is not related to you, exectuted, ect. The difference beween the US and those states is just what it takes to put someone on Death Row. LIke i said, you only get there after a series of things that goes on behind the scenes trying to come up with OTHER WAYS OF DEALING with the problem.

nor did you read where i stated that there are places that it should be reformed and cleaned up that would get rid of the possibility that an innocent man or woman would be found guilty and executed for someone elses crime or crimes. That there should be criminal courts whose entire job is to deal with death penality cases when they are brought up in Superior Court, and then over to a serious set of Appeals Courts that ddoes in there as well. And ANY apparent illegularities woule get the case tossed bck down to be retried.

[Fusilier]

They use the death penalty for damn near anything...

And it doesn't work obviously. That's my point.

The death penalty doesn't prevent crime.

nor did you read where i stated that there are places that it should be reformed and cleaned up that would get rid of the possibility that an innocent man or woman would be found guilty and executed for someone elses crime or crimes.

I did read it. But since you can't be 100% certain 100% of the time, it is irrelevant in my opinion.

I knew this wouold come up, it always does.

That should be a clear indication to you then that something is wrong.

[natehale1971]

You know Fus, you just don't get WHY the Peath Penalty is used, how it is suppose to be used and what is accomplished with it.

You are lumping the US with counties who use the death penality will-nilly for a wide range of crimes from being homosexual to actual crimes. I eve wrote dow WHY the pentalty is used, and thefact it's not used as often as it should, and when it's used that it's used to get guilty people to agree to pleed guilty for lesser charges that will get them in jail for 25 to life so that they won't have to face the death penalty when they go before a court.

Are you really saying that no one deserrves to be executed for their crimes Mass Murder, Genocide, Rape Camps and the like All these are crimes against humanity. And like it or not, there are people in our world who are doing things just as horrible on a daily basis who needs to be punished. And sometimes their criminal acts are just so damn hanious that they deserve to be remmoved from God's Green Earth.

Comparing the US who only exectes fro TWO reasons to countries who have massively different ways to decide to go with executions...

Are you saying that in your T2k World that something like this happening, you'dd just slap them on their hands and let them go with a pat on their head and runalong

My campaigns are pretty straight forward. When the PCs had access to sending EPOWS to the rear to the stockade and holding camps. at the Cantonments, it was as simple as that. But when they didn't have that ability, they more times more than not stripped them of everything they had of value, marked them and said taht if they were ever encountere again they'd be executed. The execution of EPOW was something that only happened if it was apsoluately necessary. and if they had been caught doing something horrendous (rape, child rape, murder and a few other nasty things)

Using your exmaples... these two countries have entrely different versions of what gets you capital punishiment, and it's NOTHING like what we have here.

In the People's Republic of China there are 55 criminal offences that are eligible for the death penalty. Many of these offences are non-violent and economic criminal offences. The following are just a few of them.

Crimes of Endangering Public Security

1. Committing arson, breaching a dike, causing explosion, spreading poison or inflicting serious injury or death on people or causes heavy losses of public or private property by other dangerous means.
2. Sabotaging any means of transport, transportation facility, electric power facility, gas facility, or inflammable or explosive equipment, thereby causing serious consequences
3. Any hijacker who causes serious injury to or death of any other person or serious damage to aircraft
4. Illegally manufacturing, trading, transporting, mailing or storing any guns, ammunition or explosives in serious circumstances.
5. Stealing or forcibly seizing any guns, ammunition or explosives in serious circumstances.
6. Robbery of any guns, ammunition or explosives or stealing or forcibly seizing any guns, ammunition or explosives from State organs, members of the armed forces, the police or the people's militia
7. Producing or selling fake medicines that cause death especially if serious harm is done to human health.
8. Whoever mixes the foods that he produces or sells with toxic or harmful non-food raw materials or knowingly sells such foods that cause death or especially serious harm.

Crimes of Smuggling

9. Smuggling drugs, weapons, ammunition, nuclear materials or counterfeit currency if circumstances are serious.

Crimes of Disrupting the Order of Financial Administration


11. Whoever counterfeits currencies and
a. being a ringleader of a gang engaged in counterfeiting currencies;
b. having counterfeited currencies in especially huge, amounts; or
c. being involved in other especially serious circumstances.

Crimes of Infringing Upon Citizens' Right of the Person and Democratic Rights.

17. Intentionally commits homicide
18. Intentionally inflicting injury upon another person AND if he/she causes death to the person or, by resorting to especially cruel means, causes severe injury to the person, reducing the person to utter disability
19. Raping a woman or has sexual intercourse with a girl under the age of 14 in any of the following circumstances:
(1) the circumstances being flagrant;
(2) raping a number of women or girls under the age of 14;
(3) raping a woman before the public in a public place;
(4) raping a woman with one or more persons in succession; or
(5) causing serious injury or death to the victim or any other serious consequences.
20. Unlawfully detaining another person or unlawfully deprives the personal freedom of another person by any other means AND if he causes injury, disability or death to the victim by violence.
21. Unlawfully detaining or confines another person in order to get payment of a debt does the same in (20)
22. Where a functionary of a State organ commits any of the crimes mentioned in (20).
23. Kidnapping another person for the purpose of extorting money or property or kidnaps another person as a hostage AND Whoever kidnaps another person for the purpose of extorting money or property or kidnaps another person as a hostage.
24. Abducting and trafficking in a woman or child AND if the circumstances are especially serious beyond the following:
(1) being a ringleader of a gang engaged in abducting and trafficking in women and children;
(2) abducting and trafficking in three or more women and/or children;
(3) raping the woman who is abducted and trafficked in;
(4) enticing or forcing the woman who is abducted and trafficked in to engage in prostitution, or selling such woman to any other person who would force her to engage in prostitution;
(5) kidnapping a woman or child by means of violence, coercion or anaesthesia for the purpose of selling the victim;
(6) stealing a baby or an infant for the purpose of selling the victim;
(7) causing serious injury or death to the woman or child who is abducted and trafficked in or to her or his relatives or any other serious consequences; or
(8) selling a woman or a child out of the territory of China.

Other


Illegally selling or transfers weapons or equipment of the armed forces AND if a large amount of weapons or equipment is sold or transferred or if there are other especially serious circumstances involved.
Any serviceman who, during wartime, cruelly injures innocent residents in an area of military operation or plunders their money or property AND if the circumstances are serious.


Capital punishment is legal and applied in Iran. Capital crimes are murder, rape, adultery, pedophilia, sodomy, drug trafficking, moharebeh (waging war on people or God) and mofsed-e-filarz (spreading corruption on earth). Various sources claim that up to 312 people were executed in Iran in 2010, the commonly accepted number being around 180. The overwhelming majority were drug traffickers, and virtually all executions are carried out for murder, aggravated rape, large scale drug trafficking, and armed robbery (cases usually resulting in rape/death).

Iran has garnered Western media attention and criticism for allegedly carrying out lethal punishments, like stoning, and executions of minors, despite having signed the Convention on the Rights of the Child, which forbids executing "child" offenders for crimes committed under the age of 18. However, Iran claims dispensation in cases where the Convention is deemed "incompatible with Islamic jurisprudence". An Iranian judiciary spokesman fiercely denied that it executes juvenile criminals or stones people to death, describing it as "propaganda against Iranian state" Iran is alleged to have the second highest execution rate in the world, second to China, although other countries like Iraq, Afghanistan, Nigeria and many more allegedly carry out secret executions.

Executions of women in Iran happen less often, and only account for a handful of executions every year. Only four women were executed in Iran in 2010.

Death sentences in Iran are in theory legal for eight different crimes: armed robbery, treason, murder, drug trafficking, rape, pedophilia, sodomy, kidnapping and terrorism.

[Fusilier]

Lemme put it this way again...

Innocent people in the United States have been, and will be, executed for crimes they didn't commit. From a morale stand point, I can't support such a system. It is unacceptable in my mind to utilize a system that kills innocent people.

That's my main counter argument why I think it is barbaric.

You know Fus, you just don't get WHY the Peath Penalty is used, how it is suppose to be used and what is accomplished with it.

I'd wager, neither do Americans since your homicide rates are through the roof despite your electric chairs and lethal injections.

You are lumping the US with counties who use the death penality will-nilly for a wide range of crimes

To show that even with the death penalty these willy-nilly crimes still occur. The death penalty neither prevented the crime from happening or stopped future crimes from happening.

...it's used to get guilty people to agree to plead guilty for lesser charges that will get them in jail for 25 to life so that they won't have to face the death penalty when they go before a court.

What about those who aren't guilty How do they react to this coercion

And sometimes their criminal acts are just so damn hanious that they deserve to be remmoved from God's Green Earth.

I never said they didn't need to be removed - from society.

Comparing the US who only exectes fro TWO reasons to countries who have massively different ways to decide to go with executions...

Your system is not perfect either. Hence, my earlier point of innocent people being executed for something they didn't commit.

Are you saying that in your T2k World that something like this happening, you'd just slap them on their hands and let them go with a pat on their head and runalong

That is a strawman argument.

I never said anything about slapping people on the hands and letting them go. Unless you can site where I said criminals shouldn't be punished, you are deliberately misrepresenting me. For the matter, I believe in rehabilitation for criminals and separating those from society who are beyond rehabilitation. You know... how the country's with much lower homicide rates do it. It seems to be working for them after all.

In the fiction of Tw2000, there isn't the means to properly do this under the extraordinary situations so I don't think it applies to today. And it wouldn't make it right anyways - it would simply be an immoral requirement.

[Raellus]

Hey fellas, opinions clearly run the gamut here and passion can sometimes get the better of us. Let's try to keep the tone respectful. I think this debate is OK to have and, IMHO, no one has quite overstepped the bounds of what is acceptable here, but let's make sure that we're not getting carried away and shooting from the hip.

At the very beginning of my PotV PbP, a PC summarily executed a bound and wounded marauder prisoner. The IC and OOC debate surrounding this IG act led to at least one player quitting the game and it almost sank the campaign before it really even began. What I'm trying to say is that this is a very touchy subject and we need to keep that in mind while engaging in mature and respectful discussions.

[natehale1971]

Fusilier you are thinking that we don't have ways to find innocents to make sure that they aren't executed. What was it about all those hoops that has be be jumped through to just get someone to be charged with a Death Penalty case, and after conviction to get executed. There are safeguards all through the progame. And it's not just bam you're guilty, then taken out back and executed.

You go through a series of appeals that the taxpayers pay for. that investigates all aspects of the crime and how they were found guilty. To date it looks as if NONE have been executed falsely. the average time spent on death row are 20 years or more. during that time they are going through their appeals.

Do you think i want an inncoent person to be put to death YOu're making the 'strawman' assumption that is the case. Becaue it's not. I would rather a thousand guilty go free than have ONE innocent man go to jail or be put to death.

I want to make sure only those who deserve to be put down are done so. And if you would have read about how i feel it should be inacted, that the level of needs of evidence that would be used to convict them.

I've given you ther reasons WHY we need the death penalty. It's thought out and backed up with history. And the fact that we've not to my knowledge executed innocents in this country should show just how deeply these cases are investigated and prosecuted. I would rather we didn't need to have the death penalty. But using it as a bargeting chip during negotations happening behind the scenes and having it for those criminals how DESERVE it is just to great of a need to just throw it out.

[Raellus]

You go through a series of appeals that the taxpayers pay for. that investigates all aspects of the crime and how they were found guilty. To date it looks as if NONE have been executed falsely. the average time spent on death row are 20 years or more. during that time they are going through their appeals.

Really I'd like to see the sources substantiating this claim. I'm pretty sure that I've heard of more than a couple of cases where people were executed only for evidence (usually DNA that could not be processed due to non-existent technology) to surface exonerating them. If this is not the case, I'd love to be proven wrong. The execution of innocents is one of my biggest objections to capital punishment- that, and the lack of evidence backing it as a deterent to crime.

[kato13]

This thread is now 100% political so I am locking it.