Alternate British Armed Forces stuff...

[natehale1971]

Yep...the way I see it Nate's going for a continued Cold War with a strengthened British Army. Possibly one where there's still a Strategic Defence Review circa 1990 but it increases rather than decreases Army numbers.

Exactly... The Black Winter that saw the Soviet Forces in Eastern Europe opening a massive can of whop-ass that was used to kick the Soviet Bloc back in line really scared the shit out of everyone... the surprise and swiftness that the Soviet forces had mobilized and carried out their operation had occuried in such a way that NATO wasn't really sure what was happening until it was too late.

Thus the NATO forces remained at full strength and developed force increases instead of decreases.

Hong Kong never was turned over to the PRC, the Treaty of Nanking that gave Hong Kong in perpetuity and the discovery of a wartime treaty between the UK and both sides of the Chinese Civil War that not only reinforced this, but gave the UK some more territory around Hong Kong (and opened up the possiblities of other concession areas throughout China that would have been brokered by the British with what ever government would be ruling China).

Now that i know that Territorial Army units are Light Infantry and Motorized Infantry units... I can understand better what's happening.

reestablishiment of disbanded (or just the creation of new) mechanized infantry, armoured and cavalry units might be a big thing during the expansion of the British Armed Forces.

[95th Rifleman]

Now that i know that Territorial Army units are Light Infantry and Motorized Infantry units... I can understand better what's happening.

Not exactly.

The Rifle's TA are light and motorised because that is the Rifle's main battle role.

Every Regiment's TA unit is roughly the same as their parent Regiment. Artillery TA are trained gunners, Cavalry TA are trained tankers etc.

[natehale1971]

I was picturing the Home Guard having a look of paramilitary (well, armed police) instead of the regular British Army. That's why i was going with the pre-DPM battle dress being issued from the stockpiles along with civilian articles.

I was seeing the Home Guard helping the Police with keeping the peace... especially dealing with anti-war riots that would be breaking out after the implimentation of the Draft on a very wide scale that included women. But the legislation would give women the ability to join the Home Guard to escape the draft (with preference to single mothers for such actions).

Also Consiencious Objectors wouldn't be getting out of serving in some kind of uniformed capacity... be it in the Home Guard or as a member of a construction battalion who'd be tasked with building, repairing and clearing areas that had been attacked.

[natehale1971]

Not exactly.

The Rifle's TA are light and motorised because that is the Rifle's main battle role.

Every Regiment's TA unit is roughly the same as their parent Regiment. Artillery TA are trained gunners, Cavalry TA are trained tankers etc.

Ah. thanks for the clarification.

when a TA unit is activated into a RA unit, they'd be deployed overseas, but how long would it take for them to be deployed Would additional units that were being established/mobilized be classed as TA or just a new RA unit as it transititions during training

[Rainbow Six]

Question - when did you plan to implement conscription Before the War starts (and if so, how many years) or after it has started

[natehale1971]

Question - when did you plan to implement conscription Before the War starts (and if so, how many years) or after it has started

Conscription starts about the same time as the US and Canadians instituted it... shortly after NATO throws in support for the two German states in evicting the Soviets right after the Czechoslovak forces invaded Southern Germany and pretty much attacked the US forces in Bavaira... thus, the OFFICIAL start of the Europ-Soviet War (though many observers and commentators consider the DNVA Putsch and the West German Bundeswehr handling the eviction as the start of the Euro-Soviet War).

the nuclear exchanges in Europe and North America isn't for a year and half after that.

[Sanjuro]

Highest rank in all three Armed services is O-11;
RAF- Marshal of the RAF
RN- Admiral of the Fleet
Army- Field Marshal
Even at Second World War manning levels, these proved sufficient to cover all the required posts.
At current levels, these ranks are not necessary- promotion to O-11 tends to be a reward for long service as an alternative to retirement. The current Chief of Defence Staff is a General; his juniors as Chief of the General Staff, Chief of the Air Staff and First Sea Lord are all also O-10s.
Congratulations at finding all those variants on the rank of Private; there were some in there even I'd forgotten! (along with others I only recognise from Afghanistan casualty lists).
I would concur with the other posters about khaki uniforms- DPM for Home Guard is more likely, along with '58 pattern webbing seems more likely.

[Sanjuro]

when a TA unit is activated into a RA unit, they'd be deployed overseas, but how long would it take for them to be deployed Would additional units that were being established/mobilized be classed as TA or just a new RA unit as it transititions during training

TA units tasked to BAOR would be available within 2 weeks or so from a standing start- this could be expected to be less if there was a period of tension before the war started. A difference in quality is apparent for about 6 weeks of war use- after that TA units are indistinguishable from regulars.
During WW2 regular recruitment actually ceased- all new recruits were considered to be Hostilities Only personnel, subject to demob at the end of the war; for example the RAF stopped recruiting before WW2 started, and passed recruiting to the RAFVR. Royal Auxiliary Air Force units traditionally handled their own recruitment- they also were folded into the RAF as just another unit for the duration of the war.
I believe that before WW1 the TA had an organisation more like the US State National Guards, (hence the name Territorial) but that they were changed to their modern form as part of the Army reforms under Field Marshal Lord Roberts VC (Bobs, as Kipling called him).

[natehale1971]

I know... please remember this is an alternate setting and that the addition of the O-12 rank was something that was used in as ranks that were held by the Prime Minister, Defense Minister and Monarch since they took active roles in the actual military planning.

Prince William and Prince Harry take a very active role in the armed forces... In fact, in this setting Prince Harry would prove himself to be an exceptionally gifted when it comes to military strategy and logistics planning. Prince William bascily became the centre of morale boosting activties, while Harry was seen as a the Fighting Man's Prince... sort of like Bradley was seen as the "Fighting Man's General" during the Second World War.

I've actually written up the Defense Staff... and while the O-11 and O-10 ranks were used for them, it was the fact that the Prime Minister and Royals had held a military rank before the outbreak of the war. and some of the non-military personnel were treating them as if they had no actual experience. And thus the creation of the wartime ranks.

Highest rank in all three Armed services is O-11;
RAF- Marshal of the RAF
RN- Admiral of the Fleet
Army- Field Marshal
Even at Second World War manning levels, these proved sufficient to cover all the required posts.
At current levels, these ranks are not necessary- promotion to O-11 tends to be a reward for long service as an alternative to retirement. The current Chief of Defence Staff is a General; his juniors as Chief of the General Staff, Chief of the Air Staff and First Sea Lord are all also O-10s.
Congratulations at finding all those variants on the rank of Private; there were some in there even I'd forgotten! (along with others I only recognise from Afghanistan casualty lists).
I would concur with the other posters about khaki uniforms- DPM for Home Guard is more likely, along with '58 pattern webbing seems more likely.

[95th Rifleman]

reestablishiment of disbanded (or just the creation of new) mechanized infantry, armoured and cavalry units might be a big thing during the expansion of the British Armed Forces.

Technicly no disbanded unit is removed from the rolls. It takes some act of great shame or treason for that to happen. So older regiments would just be rebuilt, given the old regimental name and designation and sent forth.
This helps to create a sense of history in a new regiment.

Also regiments previously amalgamated can be expanded and restored to their original colours. An example would be the 9th/12th Lancers (one of our recon regiments), they could be expanded and restored as two seperate regiments, the 9th lancers and the 12th lancers.

A long term rebuilding project would focus on restoring previously almagamated regiments before building new ones as it's easier to expand a current unit and then split it than it is to build from scratch.

[Rainbow Six]

Conscription starts about the same time as the US and Canadians instituted it... shortly after NATO throws in support for the two German states in evicting the Soviets right after the Czechoslovak forces invaded Southern Germany and pretty much attacked the US forces in Bavaira... thus, the OFFICIAL start of the Europ-Soviet War (though many observers and commentators consider the DNVA Putsch and the West German Bundeswehr handling the eviction as the start of the Euro-Soviet War).

the nuclear exchanges in Europe and North America isn't for a year and half after that.

OK...

I have to say that in my opinion without conscription any expansion of the British Army at the end of the 80's / start of the 90's is going to be relatively modest...the military were struggling to keep the units that they had at full strength without raising any new ones. There are various proposed orders of battle for a T2K British military (including one of mine! ) most of which add in a couple of Infantry Battalions - extra Gurkha Battalions are also a popular option on the basis that 1) the Gurkhas always have more applicants than they have places for and 2) it would be a less expensive option for the British Government. Likely candidiates for "resurrection" (again I'm going from memory) were the 4th Battalion, Royal Anglian Regiment (which existed until around 1975), 4th Battalion, Queen's Regiment, and 4th Battalion, Royal Regiment of Fusiliers (as others have already stated I think it's much more likely for existing Regiments to get additional Battalions rather than new formations being raised - tradition and all that...)

Another option would be to add one (or more) TA Armoured Regiments with MBT's, probably Chieftains that would otherwise have been placed in storage (IRL there were five TA Armoured Regiments at the end of the Cold War, none of which were equipped with heavy armour - two were earmarked for the BAOR (2nd Infantry Division) and were equipped primarily with the Fox armoured car and three of which were earmarked for Home Defence and (iirc) equipped primarily with Land Rovers.

During the Cold War the BAOR's strength was four Divisions - 1st, 3rd, and 4th Armoured, all of which were Regular Army Divisions consisting of approximately six - seven armoured Regiments (one Recce and the others MBT) and six infantry Battalions equipped with the Warrior. Additional TA Battalions would be added in time of War (most TA Bns would go to the 4th Dvn, which (I think) was the reserve Division. The other Division was the 2nd Infantry which consisted of one regular Infantry Brigade (24th) in an Airmobile role and two TA Infantry Brigades.

Now, that said, taking on board the fact that this is an alternate setting you could possibly look at adding another Division to the regular order of battle, possibly to serve as some sort of strategic reserve with a mix of armour, airborne, and light / mech Infantry...kind of likethe old Field Forces that existed before the BAOR was restructured at the start of the 80's. You could then form another Division (in addition to the Strategic Reserve Division) after the fighting has started (much the way GDW did with their 5th Division) to give you six Divisions in Europe.

[natehale1971]

95th Rifleman...

I have a quesiton...

Would the British Army use Commonwealth Nations Units to help flesh out Divisions and Corps The Reason I ask, is that the Canadian Army and Austrialian Army sent troops to Europe prior to the fighting in the Far East and Near East needed troops to be sent there as well...

How would they be used as Brigades (to round out a division) or Divisions (to round out Corps) Or would they be a seperate command

[natehale1971]

I like the idea of extra Gurkha battalions, because that would definately be what would be happening. in fact it was one of the things I was thinking of since the begining.

I had thought of other units like the rebirth of the African Rifles that would be a unit similar to the Gurkha's... just drawn from the African Commonwealth states.

As well as units drawn from the other various commonwealth states... due to the extension and expansion of the Cold War, the British Commonwealth of Nations became alot more than a social club. The British Defense Industry got a major boost in the arm by selling hardware to those memberstates to counter the growth of the Med Alliance, Congo Pact, Havana Pact, Beijing Pact, and Baghdad Pact. Each of those alliances grew because the Soviets became the cut-rate weapons suppliers of the world, while no longer providing economic support for revolutions (they left that to the PRC.. the Sino-Soviet War was a completely unexpected war that shouldn't have happened, but when it did... it took EVERYONE by surprise).

One of the things that the British Armed Forces to remember, is that they still have Hong Kong as a Garrison... and have to put forces there after things turn sour with the Beijing Pact when North Korea launches an attack on South Korea and Japan... lot's of things that happen without people understanding why until much later.

OK...

I have to say that in my opinion without conscription any expansion of the British Army at the end of the 80's / start of the 90's is going to be relatively modest...the military were struggling to keep the units that they had at full strength without raising any new ones. There are various proposed orders of battle for a T2K British military (including one of mine! ) most of which add in a couple of Infantry Battalions - extra Gurkha Battalions are also a popular option on the basis that 1) the Gurkhas always have more applicants than they have places for and 2) it would be a less expensive option for the British Government. Likely candidiates for "resurrection" (again I'm going from memory) were the 4th Battalion, Royal Anglian Regiment (which existed until around 1975), 4th Battalion, Queen's Regiment, and 4th Battalion, Royal Regiment of Fusiliers (as others have already stated I think it's much more likely for existing Regiments to get additional Battalions rather than new formations being raised - tradition and all that...)

Another option would be to add one (or more) TA Armoured Regiments with MBT's, probably Chieftains that would otherwise have been placed in storage (IRL there were five TA Armoured Regiments at the end of the Cold War, none of which were equipped with heavy armour - two were earmarked for the BAOR (2nd Infantry Division) and were equipped primarily with the Fox armoured car and three of which were earmarked for Home Defence and (iirc) equipped primarily with Land Rovers.

During the Cold War the BAOR's strength was four Divisions - 1st, 3rd, and 4th Armoured, all of which were Regular Army Divisions consisting of approximately six - seven armoured Regiments (one Recce and the others MBT) and six infantry Battalions equipped with the Warrior. Additional TA Battalions would be added in time of War (most TA Bns would go to the 4th Dvn, which (I think) was the reserve Division. The other Division was the 2nd Infantry which consisted of one regular Infantry Brigade (24th) in an Airmobile role and two TA Infantry Brigades.

Now, that said, taking on board the fact that this is an alternate setting you could possibly look at adding another Division to the regular order of battle, possibly to serve as some sort of strategic reserve with a mix of armour, airborne, and light / mech Infantry...kind of likethe old Field Forces that existed before the BAOR was restructured at the start of the 80's. You could then form another Division (in addition to the Strategic Reserve Division) after the fighting has started (much the way GDW did with their 5th Division) to give you six Divisions in Europe.

[95th Rifleman]

95th Rifleman...

I have a quesiton...

Would the British Army use Commonwealth Nations Units to help flesh out Divisions and Corps The Reason I ask, is that the Canadian Army and Austrialian Army sent troops to Europe prior to the fighting in the Far East and Near East needed troops to be sent there as well...

How would they be used as Brigades (to round out a division) or Divisions (to round out Corps) Or would they be a seperate command

Dude, stop scaring me! I was about to write about commonwealth when I read the above.

ok, we wouldn't get any Canadians or ANZACs, they are independent nations with their own militaries who serve alongside the british.

However there are severaly countries who send men (and women) to the UK to serve directly in UK regiments. I live in the town of Bicester which is the garriosn town for the 23rd Pioneer regiment. A large percentage of these lads are Fijian with some carribean, St Lucian and african lads aswell as the usual mix of Brits.

I can imagine a stepped up program to recruit for these overseas countries would go alongside an expansion of the Uk forces.

[natehale1971]

How are British Platoons Organized..

I guess what I am asking, is... What are the positions in the platoon

Can someone write it out for me in a format that is similar to this

US Army Platoon Organization (emergency wartime organization)
Section One:
1LT/2LT <name>, Platoon Commander
SGT <name>, Plt Cmdr Radio-Telephone Operator
SGT <name>, Combat Field Medic
SGT <name>, Fire Team Leader
SPC <name>, Grenadier
PFC <name>, Automatic Rifleman
PV2 <name>, Rifleman
SPC <name>, MG Gunner
PFC <name>, MG Assist. Gunner
PV2 <name>, MG Ammo Bearer
SPC <name>, Designated Marksman
Section Two:
SFC <name>, Platoon Sergeant
SPC <name>, Plt Sgt Radio-Telephone Operator
SPC <name>, Combat Field Medic
SGT <name>, Fire Team Leader
SPC <name>, Grenadier
PFC <name>, Automatic Rifleman
PV2 <name>, Rifleman
SPC <name>, MG Gunner
PFC <name>, MG Assist. Gunner
PV2 <name>, MG Ammo Bearer
SPC <name>, Designated Marksman
Section Three:
SSG <name>, Squad Leader
SPC <name>, Radio-Telephone Operator
SPC <name>, Combat Field Medic
SGT <name>, Fire Team Leader
SPC <name>, Grenadier
PFC <name>, Automatic Rifleman
PV2 <name>, Rifleman
SPC <name>, MG Gunner
PFC <name>, MG Assist. Gunner
PV2 <name>, MG Ammo Bearer
SPC <name>, Designated Marksman
Section Four (Indirect Fire Support Section):
SSG <name>, Squad Leader
SPC <name>, Radio-Telephone Operator
SPC <name>, Combat Field Medic
SPC <name>, Designated Marksman
SGT <name>, Mortar Gunner
PFC <name>, Mortar Assistant Gunner
SPC <name>, Mortar Gunner
PFC <name>, Mortar Assistant Gunner
SPC <name>, Mortar Gunner
PFC <name>, Mortar Assistant Gunner
PV2 <name>, Mortar Ammo Bearer
Sniper Section:
SGT <name>, Spotter
SPC <name>, Sniper
PFC <name>, Flanker