OT - Red State

[Tombot]

Just saw Kevin Smith (Clerks!) latest film.
Oh man, what a ride.
The twists and turns it took were all convincing, the dialogue and the acteurs were superb (John Goodman as ATF-Agent!).
It had great suspense and action as well. Strongly entertaining, not one lame minute, without "wanting to much". Thumbs up!

And its inspirational for T2k-GMs for its fanatical religious group, holed up on their premises with guns and lots of ammo...
I can imagine a lot of little (and bigger) groups like that all over the T2k-world, waiting for the final day to come.

If you can - go see it.

Trailer:

http://www.youtube.com/watchv=SmmnVGyLajw

[natehale1971]

it's ironic tey call the move 'Red State' to try and associate Phelps with the conservatives... when 99.9% of conservatives can't stand the guy. And he's a registered Democrat who has his cultist (who are all family by blood or marriage, and in many cases BOTH at the same time) vote for democrats.

[Tombot]

it's ironic tey call the move 'Red State' to try and associate Phelps with the conservatives... when 99.9% of conservatives can't stand the guy. And he's a registered Democrat who has his cultist (who are all family by blood or marriage, and in many cases BOTH at the same time) vote for democrats.

I see.. hope not all the american democrats are as evil as Phelps is!
Btw - since you seem to know quite a few conservatives - are you sure they dont have some outlandish freaks among them, too Just asking

Whatever - to me, the film was just good entertainment.

[natehale1971]

Considering I am a Conservative... I've met alot of people who share my political beliefs, as well as those who like to call me a bigoit, racist and homophobe... three things that really don't jive with who i am, and the fact that I have more friends who are homosexual (one of my aunts for instance was a lesbian, and she was like a second mother to me). That i was introduced to conservative ideals by an African-American, and that i'm one of the most open-minded people you'll meet because i like to listen to all sides, and get as much data as possible before I make up my mind about something.

Conservatives in the United States for the most part belive that the government that governs the least, governs the best. And that the Constitution was written to LIMIT the powers of the Federal Government... the only 'crazy' people that I know are the ones who want to build artificial islands to set up their own countires with severely limited government insitutions. Not realizing that on a small scale like that, you really don't need a federal government to oversee your activities.

People like to forget the simple adage... that if someone can give you something, they can take it away. And the rection to the austerity measures in Europe are showing what happens when you make people dependent upon government handouts.

Phelps is an abonmination, and his children who have fled his little cult have spoken out against him on many occassions. Unlike many other religions who are quiet about speaking out against the activities of their extremists, we Christians have denouced him and abortion bombers and the like... because they make all of us look like we're crazy.

Its kind of funny, the extreme 'right-wing' wackos that the Mainstream Media likes to pain the Tea Party members as... are derided and hated by the majority of the convservaitves. And trying to make the Tea Party out as a single monolith group is also funny. It's a grass roots movement made up of alot of small individual groups of like minded people who span the political spectrum. in fact the local tea party group near me is headed up by an African-American who is (or was) registered as a Democrat...

If you ever want to hear more about Phelps and his ilk, just google him, and look for the pages written by people who had left his little cult. If i remember right, his son wrote a book on the subject.

[Webstral]

Demonizing is a fun and labor-saving exercise. Its uses as a tool of propaganda are time-honored and effective. Its continual presence in politics alone justifies a liberal arts education.

[Fusilier]

Conservatives in the United States for the most part believe that the government that governs the least, governs the best. And that the Constitution was written to LIMIT the powers of the Federal Government.

I realize that is the underlining concept of the conservatives. However, it does "seem" though that the conservatives are saying this, but doing quite the opposite (not you - the party).

Having creation taught in the science class
Banning abortion
Halting stem cell research
Banning same sex unions
Would close planned parenthood
Continue drug war
Mandate school prayer
Close planned parenthood
Extend the war in A-stan
etc.

All of these declared intentions by the various republican candidates do appear to be actually very intrusive and not "limiting" at all.

[pmulcahy11b]

I call myself an "Enlightened Liberal." Many would find my views confusing, and probably both conservatives and liberals would find something in them to be horrified about. But by and large I am a liberal.

[Raellus]

This is why I loathe the American two party system. Every election is like choosing between getting kneed in the groin or punched in the side of the head.

The ironic thing about American conservatives is that, economically, they want much less government intervention, and socially, they want much more. Their selective use of religion as a justification for various platform items really bothers the theologian in me.

Liberals here tend to embrace nearly every social cause imaginable, which costs way more money than we can afford to spend. But if they say no to any one group, they lose votes.

Both sides end up making a lot of promises that they just can't keep.

What we need is a viable third party, preferably moderate, that can help break the deadlock.

[Legbreaker]

Personally I'd like to see government run like a corporation with a CEO, directors, etc and the citizens all financial shareholders. If the executive can't keep the books balanced, AND make a tidy profit which can be redirected the shareholders as dividends, OR show that the profits are being turned into infrastructure improvements, social projects and the like THAT ACTUALLY WORK, they should be immediately sacked and the best person for the job found from wherever they happen to be in the world, regardless of nationality.

Will it happen Not in a million years...

[pmulcahy11b]

Two of the many things we need in the US are:

1) A mechanism for recall elections at ANY level of government
2) No one should be allowed to decide their own pay -- the people should be allowed to vote, every year, on how much their congressmen, senators, president get paid.

You know what I think would be absolutely precious for the next election If no one, repeat, NO ONE, voted. A 0% turnout. I think that would really send a message. "None of you bums is good enough for us!"

[Legbreaker]

But with the current US system, it only takes one solitary vote...
And you can be sure the candidates will be voting for themselves, and their families and friends along with them, not to mention all those parties who have an interest financial, political or otherwise is what "their" candidate stands for.

From an outsiders perspective, one of the biggest problems with the US system is that voting is optional and so the elected person(s) are far from representative of what the total populaton really wants. Yes, everyone is entitled to vote, but even here in Australia where it is compulsory for 18+, a small number fail to do it (and end up fined, etc).

Another issue seems to be the MASSIVELY long campaign time. By election day EVERYONE is soooooo sick of politics they just want to bury their head in the sand and hope it all goes away. Limiting the campaigns in some way and making voting compulsory would, in my opinion anyway, result in a radicially different election outcome and possibly reduce the influence of the "special interest" groups who I'm sure are offering "incentives" of some kind or another to anyone who votes.

From an outsiders viewpoint, it's a crap system.

[Webstral]

The ironic thing about American conservatives is that, economically, they want much less government intervention, and socially, they want much more.

There's a great line from The West Wing on this subject: "The GOP wants the government out of everybody's business and onto the battlefields and into their bedrooms and wombs", or words to that effect. Of course, such observations apply to a fair minority of the party. Equally, observations made about the other side apply to a minority.

What we need is a viable third party, preferably moderate, that can help break the deadlock.

I've said the same thing for years. Only recently have I realized how the two-party system serves to suppress the emergence of a centrist third party. The center Left and center Right make up the vast majority of the electorate, and they have much more in common with each other than with the extreme wings of their own parties. The extreme wings know this. They use fear to keep the centrists from working together. The Far Left tells its own centrists that it's either the Far Left way or having the religious Nazis and corporate bigwigs calling the shots. The Far Right tells its centrists that it's either the Far Right way or having the unions, homosexuals, and socialists calling the shots. This simple formula is distressingly effective at keeping centrists from acting on their own belief system.

The problem with a profit-based concept of governance is that many of the things a state does aren't profitable. Caring for the homeless, for instance, is not profitable in a measurable way. It's far more cost-effective to ignore them. Eveh when one can make an argument that all government functions contribute to the overall well-being of the society and thus to profitability, one runs into the self-interest factor. "Why should I pay taxes for something that doesn't benefit me at all" This question has no good answer, no matter how good an answer might be given. I've had this same discussion with elderly relatives who don't see why they should pay for public schooling when their own children have been out of school for thirty or forty years. When I ask who is supposed to rent their rental properties if no one has an education, the answer is an expressed faith that renters for MY units will appear out of the quick. Oy.

The Founding Fathers understood that the passions of the citizenry are just as destructive as the potential tyrannies of the State. This is why there isn't a no confidence clause for Congressmen. Sometimes, elected officials have to do unpopular things. At the same time, this is why the House of Reps stands for re-election every two years; in theory, the memory of the body politic will last long enough for the Rep to have to explain himself. The Founding Fathers failed to anticipate that the allure of the ball game, sitcoms, and reality TV would preclude the body politic from having any idea what their elected officials are doing.

[kota1342000]

Sounds good Tom, Ill check it out. Kevin Smith's films are always a good time to start with.

Its also interesting to find any material that wont start a raving argument at a game table and wreck a game in favor of spouting off a bunch of politics. I hear enough of it at truck stops.

[natehale1971]

I'm gonna go down the points on this one...

Having creation taught in the science class

Both Creation and Evolution should be taught in science class, because both theories have valid points, and by teaching both... you allow the student to make up their own mind on the subject. And that's part of teaching critical thinking.

Banning abortion

Not Banning Abortion, but stopping the use of abortion as a pro-active form of birth control. the 'late-term abortion' that has been wanted to be banned, is something that the creator of the procedure has been fighting for. Because they are taking a viable child, turning it around to deliver it feet first, and right before the head comes out they ram a rod into it's brain killing it. The creator of the proceedure said that it puts the woman's life in danger and can kill her.

Halting stem cell research

They don't hate stem cell research. In fact during the Bush Administration more money went into stem cell research, they just did not want to use fetal stem cells from fetuses that had been created for the sole purpose of harvesting stem cells.

Banning same sex unions

No. They are not against Same Sex Unions. In fact they supported the use of Civil Unions instead of the term "Marriage" for same sex couples. But I'm so coversative I disagree with the Government having ANYTHING to do with marraige. Marriage is a religous insititution, and churches shold be the ones who say who can, and can not get married. Having the government force a chruch to marry a couple they do not see as right and just by their religion is just as bad as what we've got going on right now.

Would close planned parenthood

A good thing actually. Have you read anything about who these people are Or what their goal was when they were founded Do a quick google search for Marget Sanger quotes and read about how she wanted to use abortion to remove the weeds from American society & Culture. when over 50% of african-american pregnancies end in abortion, the word genocide really springs to mind.

Continue drug war

More and more conservatives are turning against the Drug War, and are actually listening to the Libertarians on legalizing and taxing the hell out of drugs.

Mandate school prayer

NO. THey arentwanting to mandate school prayer. They are wanting to allow School Prayer. Children have been expelled from school for brining a bible to read or praying in school. Teachers have been fired for praying over their meals.

Close planned parenthood

You listed this tiwce... and once again. find out more about the people who founded Planned Parenthood and what they planned on using abortion for.

Extend the war in A-stan

If we're going to fight a war, we should be doing it to win, not pussyfoot around. If we're not there to win, we should be getting the hell out. More conservatives feel this way than just contining the war.

All of these declared intentions by the various republican candidates do appear to be actually very intrusive and not "limiting" at all.

Andd as I pointed out. Many of these stances are just plan wrong, and taking the talking points of the left and ignoring what conservatives (and the TEA Party) has actually said or done.

[Sanjuro]

Science and fundamentalist religion

Both Creation and Evolution should be taught in science class, because both theories have valid points, and by teaching both... you allow the student to make up their own mind on the subject. And that's part of teaching critical thinking.

[SOAPBOX MODE]
All the scientifically collected data supports evolution; even complex organs like the eye can be shown to have evolved in stages, starting with skin cells sensitive to light, and in ways where each successive mutation gave a survival advantage. However, evolution does not disprove the existence of God- it only contradicts the most limited literal interpretation of the Bible.
Religious fundamentalism in the Middle East frightens me less than it does in the developed West; the historical example frightens me a great deal.
After the fall of the Roman Empire, science was lost to Europe for nearly a thousand years. For most of that time, science continued in Arabia- in fact, the language of science was Arabic. The legacy of this can be seen to this day- we use Arabic numerals, and most of the brighter stars have Arabic names- there are many other examples.
At some point, however, the political leadership in the Arab nations decided the people would be easier to control if they were more restricted in their thinking- so it was enforced that only the Koran held the truth, and that anything which contradicted the Koran in any way was not only false, but evil. Arab science effectively ended in a generation.
Now we have, in the West (with the USA as the extreme example) a school of thought that seeks to suppress science where it contradicts the Bible. Please note: just because previous posters have said something I disagree with, does NOT mean they follow this school of thought. On the contrary, posters on this board have shown a great willingness to see both sides of the argument.
Religion has its own spaces where it can spread its message, and many of its teachings are entirely relevant to even modern life- but let science have its space. Don't let the West go the way of the last scientific culture!
[/SOAPBOX MODE]