US Army to replace the M-9

[Legbreaker]

With regard to supply chains in relation to Military and Law Enforcement, it's like comparing apples and oranges.
The military have a very high turnover of ammunition and therefore their weapons wear out faster and require more maintenance including replacement parts.
How many law enforcement personnel fire their weapon more than a few rounds a year to qualify? Just take a look at the recent posts in Stupid Things thread to see what I'm getting at...

So, law enforcement really doesn't need much in the way of logistical support and therefore can afford to pick up whatever they feel like. They don't need to even glance at military procurement unless they really, really want a weapon which will be suitable for the battlefield rather than wounding a suspect.

Apples and oranges....

[Sanjuro]

Interesting.
The US began the 20th Century using .38", then decided to opt for .45" instead.
The British Army began the 20th Century using .455" for pistols, but opted between WW1 and WW2 to switch to .38"!

[LAW0306]

How many law enforcement personnel fire their weapon more than a few rounds a year to qualify?

I guess your law enforcement in you area is differnt then mine. I have the FBI/DEA/ and any one else at my range every week. Same with state and locals!My brother in -law is in a Major department in the Pacific northwest they do the same. Most of my Old Marines are in A very large department in the southwest they do the same. Have Marines in a small department in the blureridge mountians they do the same. we have state and federal standards we must meet here in the good old USA. Our guys train alot. I dont know about 20 years ago...but since I have been around they train hard and do a good job. Both at large and small departments.

[Bullet Magnet]

1902: The US Army, fighting muslim insurgents, discovered that the .38 (About 9.5mm) wasn't doing the job, and decided that the .45 was the way to go.

2002: The US Army, fighting muslim insurgents, discovered that the 9mm (About .36) wasn't doing the job, and...

Why do I have a feeling that eventually, someone else will post exactly what you said, and be adding 2102 to the list?

[pmulcahy11b]

The British Army began the 20th Century using .455" for pistols, but opted between WW1 and WW2 to switch to .38"!

To honest, though, the various types of the .455 Webley round all had one thing in common: they were underpowered, trying to push a big heavy bullet with not nearly enough propellant. The .455 Webley is a rather anemic round, despite the large bullet.

[pmulcahy11b]

I was born over in Germany and was almost 7 when I finally moved to the States...

I was born in Germany, and left with my parents when I was six weeks old. That much I know for sure. But the story from my mother about the circumstances of my birth...I know its either largely bullshit or wholesale bullshit. My mother insists on sticking to her story (though bits and pieces have shifted through the years), and I haven't seen my father since I was 8 and he been dead since 2002. I think I have a good handle on the real truth, but my mother doesn't want to hear it or comment on it. (I'd love to know, if what I think is true, my mother would be so embarrassed about it.) Oh well, I'll have it nailed down for certain one day. Afterall...

...I've not yet told my mother that the stories she's told about my sister's birth are bullshit too, and her real father is a US Army major see was having an affair with while she was the nanny for him and his wife. Took me a few years of careful listening to put that together, but I'm reasonably certain it's the truth.

[rcaf_777]

Sorry break the news, but the new pistol will no doubt be a 9mm, and why would'nt it be, lets face it pistols used my the military are back weapons not primary weapon, so why carried a heavier round? because you might use it?

Yes I know the Spec Ops folks do have a heavier round but lets face, it still used as back up weapon should thier main weapon fail, based on that I can see why you need heavier round you need the stoping power. That operator needs take down the bad guy with one shot

But dose the rest of the army need that kind of stoping power? my M16A2 clone has never let me down neither has my Browning HP-35

Don't get me wrong I love the M1911 and think is a great weapon but it time with the military has come and gone.

Over 70 different countries use or make the 9mm round and it now the NATO standard round that a lot of person that make money off the 9mm round

[HorseSoldier]

I'm a 1911 guy, but there's so much silly mythology out there about the design.

The US 38 cartridge during the Philipines Insurrection was less powerful than a 380 ACP, with consequently limited penetration and ability to smash on penetration. Comparing it to modern hot 9x19 loads is comparable to drawing conclusions about 30-06 based on the 30 Carbine cartridge.

It's also worth noting that CAG (aka Delta) replaced their 1911s with Glock 19s in the late 1990s. They subsequently adopted the Glock 22 and 23 in 40 cal (one of each issued to assaulters, for use as needed/appropriate).

It's a good design. I carried one as a patrol officer because it has the best trigger ever put on a semi auto pistol. But it's not miraculous, and wasn't as influential as Brownings later lockwork for the High Power which is the format most modern pistols depart from.

[ArmySGT.]

When I have the money to buy a semi-auto, I'm going to buy a 1911. No frills.

I recommend Rock Island Arms.

Under $450 great materials, no slop in the frames, well blued. Best for the value in M1911A1.

After that the RIA Tactical for the beaver tail already done for you.

Still under $500.

[Webstral]

I recommend Rock Island Arms.

Interesting! My cohorts locally swear by the Kimber, though I haven't spoken with them lately.

[Panther Al]

Interesting! My cohorts locally swear by the Kimber, though I haven't spoken with them lately.

Oh no doubt. The Kimber is probably, in my opinion, the best mid range 1911 out there, with the SiG clones being close behind. But you are going to be paying anywhere from 700 to 1000 bucks for one - which is anything but a cheap low frills one as you mentioned in the earlier post.


Well, cheap wasn't mentioned, but...

Still.

[Webstral]

Well, cheap wasn't mentioned, but...

I prefer to think of myself as value oriented at the lower end of the budgetary scale. "Cheap" has pejorative connotations. I say no frills because I want my money to go into a handgun that reliably fires a round with good stopping power. I intend to use a handgun in combat (if a firefight ever becomes unavoidable), not to impress onlookers or myself. I know some shooters swear by this type of sight, that barrel extension, this special feature, those grips, ad nauseum. Statistically, the overwhelming majority of firefights in the American civilian world occur with shooter and target occupying space within fifteen feet of each other. Nearly half of the firefights within this range actually occur with the shooters no more than five feet apart. I've never been in a firefight at this range with a handgun, so I readily acknowledge that there's room for some of my observations to be (mis)interpreted. However, my limited experience (or overabundant experience, depending on whether you are talking to my wife or my mother) in this area has taught me that the most important factor in a firefight at this range is nerve. So long as the weapon fires when I press the trigger, so long as the round is powerful enough to put the target down with a controlled pair to the thoracic cavity, and so long as I can control the recoil well enough to get that controlled pair on-target, everything else counts as "frills". I haven't invested in a .44 because I haven't had a satisfactory experience controlling the recoil when I have used range guns or friends' guns. When I haven't been to the range in a while, I have a tendency to blow the first shot; ergo, the ability to get back on the target quickly matters to me. I can do this with my Taurus 607 (.357), and I've had a good experience doing this with a 1911. So what I really want in my semi-auto is the basics: dependability, stopping power, ease of handling.

One thing I really liked about the M4 is its controllability. The recoil is modest, and the muzzle almost obeys one's thoughts in close-range engagements. I've not had the same experience with handguns--especially revolvers, for reasons I'm sure we all understand.

[ArmySGT.]

Interesting! My cohorts locally swear by the Kimber, though I haven't spoken with them lately.

This is the story about Kimber as I know it. Kimber sold the pistol division off to an investor. The investor promptly went to cheaper suppliers and quality dropped significantly. Banking on the name and the fame.

As I understand it many PDs have pulled Kimber from their list up authorized pistols.

That was in 06 so things may have turned around.

Why pay 800 -1200 for a name. I have held and worked on RIAs and believe they are every bit as good. Customer service is good. Imported parts from the Philippines (Hello Irony) and assembled in Pahrump, NV.

[HorseSoldier]

There's been some pretty significant dings on Kimber's reputation, most notably the guy at 10-8 Performance basically saying that with then current QC he did not recommend the Kimber Warrior for patrol use. That said, it's a popular pistol in my department and guys who run them don't seem to have issues, but that's just a handful of guys still, so my stats aren't definitive.

To make an affordable 1911, you've got to cut costs somewhere -- be it some or all foreign labor, cheaper parts, etc. It's an overly complicated design compared to more modern weapons and requires more effort to build. Built properly, though, it'll outshoot just about every other pistol design on the planet.

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

This is the story about Kimber as I know it. Kimber sold the pistol division off to an investor. The investor promptly went to cheaper suppliers and quality dropped significantly. Banking on the name and the fame.

As I understand it many PDs have pulled Kimber from their list up authorized pistols.

That was in 06 so things may have turned around.

Why pay 800 -1200 for a name. I have held and worked on RIAs and believe they are every bit as good. Customer service is good. Imported parts from the Philippines (Hello Irony) and assembled in Pahrump, NV.

Ill second the RIAs, Good weapons. Several of my friends have them. I have a Colt and a Kimber. Heck im thinking of getting one just cause they are really a deal. And I would not be ashamed to put them right next to either of the others.