Drozd/ERA

[swaghauler]

It's hard to forget about things when I don't know about them in the first place. (Although I was vaguely aware of TUSK since I was lightly involved in one of the RWS proposals back in the day)

Looking up the TUSK, it appears there are two layers of ERA, a base layer of M19 blocks (ARAT-1) that can have a second layer of M32 blocks added (ARAT-2). I can't find estimates for the full system, but ARAT-1 would add AV 110 vs. HEAT only.

The TUSK kits also include SLAT armor or BAE's newer LROD bolt-on armor that provides standoff protection for HEAT and Tandem Warhead rounds. The Polish have it in the KTO Rosamak system and the Israelis have this cool new version made of lengths of chain stood off from the vehicle hull 4" and held in place by a spring or flexible rod that runs horizontally through the chains near their ends to keep them from swinging freely. The Germans have that bolt-on armor that goes on the front of newer Leopard tanks (giving them that "angular" look). I'm not sure if the armored upgrade for the AAVP-7 is BAE's LROD or another armor type. I do know it's aluminum "angle iron" backed with foam to maintain buoyancy. The triangular "angle iron" being aligned horizontally along the hull in line with the vehicle's nose to promote water flow along the hull while "swimming."
The composite nature of bolt-on armors is carried through to US armored cars. If you look into a smaller Cash-In-Transit van you will see aluminum or mild steel plates welded or riveted to the standard outer car body. between these layers is either 2" of cork or foam. The combination of these THREE materials will stop ALL handgun rounds and, in some cases, even reach NIJ Level 3 (rifle) specifications. The van will still look "stock" and have almost the same interior space as well.

[ChalkLine]

Paul's site also has stats for the AAVP-7's applique armour

[Vespers War]

Coming back to this, allegedly Malachit is AV 200-220 against KE and 240-280 against HEAT.

Relikt is around the same mass as Kontakt-5 (5.8 kg per plate vs 5.7 kg per plate), somewhere in the 2850 kg range.

ERA systems I still don't have stats for:
Super Blazer
ARAT-2 (M-19 + M-32)
ERAWA-1
ERAWA-2

Hard kill systems I don't have complete (or complete enough) stats for:
Quick Kill
Iron Curtain
Afghanit
AMAP-ADS
GL5
Iron Fist
LEDS
Zaslon
Trophy

The hard kill and most of the ERA wouldn't be around in a v1 or v2 timeline, though Super Blazer would. In an alternate timeline, they could be around. Some of these are still in development, so they're unlikely to have solid information available for a while.

[rcaf_777]

Did the US Army not make a a version of this

[Vespers War]

Trophy HV (2010): An Israeli system used on Merkava 4 and Namer, and set to be installed on M1A2 SEP V2 Abrams. Used a pair of launchers, each with 3 rounds. Claimed to be nearly 100% successful in recent use. Weighs 850 kilograms. Newer versions are lighter, but I have little information on the MV and LV.

Update: Trophy MV has been replaced by/renamed to Trophy VPS, which is 480 kilograms but claimed to be equal to Trophy HV in performance, with the weight savings largely coming from replacing the 2007-2010 era electronics with more modern equipment. VPS is being tested on Stryker along with Rheinmetall/UBT's StrikeShield. Leonardo DRS has also apparently done testing of the system on an M113 (which makes me wonder why they haven't also tested it on an M2, because I know they have one).

Also, the overall system weight for HV is about 2.5x what I listed (it's described as "around 5,000 pounds" in an article about testing). I assume what I grabbed was the weight for each launcher, and there's some extra weight for sensor or processing or other gribblies, so the VPS should probably be multiplied by the same amount for overall system weight, so roughly 3,000 pounds. There's also mention of increased capacity with autoloading systems, but (reasonably if somewhat disappointingly) nothing that I could find giving the total capacity.

[pmulcahy11b]

Leonardo DRS has also apparently done testing of the system on an M113 (which makes me wonder why they haven't also tested it on an M2, because I know they have one).

Current iterations of the Bradley (including the upcoming M2A4) have so much of a load on their electrical buses that mounting an APS and the associated electronics is impossible. There's another upcoming Bradley (beyond the M2A4 which is now considered an interim version), the M2A5, which has a beefed-up electrical system to handle an APS.

Here's a different question, though -- how long have systems like Drozd and Trophy been out Even in prototype form Do hard-kill APSs even exist in the T2K timeline

[Raellus]

Yes

Here's a different question, though -- how long have systems like Drozd and Trophy been out Even in prototype form Do hard-kill APSs even exist in the T2K timeline

Drozd was developed in the late 1970s, and operational during the Cold War (c.1981, according the linked article).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drozd

Apparently, it was combat tested in Afghanistan but the army rejected it as being too expensive. The Naval Infantry adopted it anyway, because it was still cheaper to fit Drozd to its existing T-55s than it was to replace the older tanks with T-72s (which were also too heavy for some of the Soviet's hovercraft landing vessels). I read somewhere else that there were some issues with the Drozd system being damaged by salt water exposure, which is one of the reasons it was eventually removed from said Naval Infantry T-55s and, IIRC, replaced with conventional reactive armor. The Naval Infantry ended up getting some T-72s as well, as bigger hovercraft to carry them entered service.

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[Vespers War]

Drozd was developed in the late 1970s, and operational during the Cold War (c.1981, according the linked article).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drozd

Apparently, it was combat tested in Afghanistan but the army rejected it as being too expensive. The Naval Infantry adopted it anyway, because it was still cheaper to fit Drozd to its existing T-55s than it was to replace the older tanks with T-72s (which were also too heavy for some of the Soviet's hovercraft landing vessels). I read somewhere else that there were some issues with the Drozd system being damaged by salt water exposure, which is one of the reasons it was eventually removed from said Naval Infantry T-55s and, IIRC, replaced with conventional reactive armor. The Naval Infantry ended up getting some T-72s as well, as bigger hovercraft to carry them entered service.

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Drozd was replaced by Kontakt-1 on the Naval Infantry T-55s. Some T-55s later got Kontakt-5 (the T-55M5), but I'm not sure Naval Infantry ever got them. Kontakt-1 was a light ERA (1.2 tonnes, +80 AV vs. HEAT only), while Kontakt-5 is heavy (2.8 tonnes, +100 AV vs. Heat and +60 AV vs. KE).

To answer Paul's question, in the T2K timeline there would be Drozd and Arena for the active kill systems. Trophy's too new (early production was 2007, with acceptance in 2009 and first combat use in 2011), as are Afghanit, Iron Curtain, Iron Fist, and pretty much everything else other than Drozd and Arena.

On the ERA side, Blazer, Kontakt-1, and Kontakt-5 all entered service in the 1980s. For ones I haven't statted up, there's also Czechoslovakia's DYNA for the T-72M4Cz (I'm currently away from my books, but the manufacturer claims it increases effective armor thickness by 30% against KE and 120-170% against HEAT if anyone wants to run numbers). Other ERA systems (Relikt, Malachit, ARAT, ERAWA, ERAWA-2, CERAWA, Nozh, Duplets, SidePRO-CE, CLARA) are too new for the Twilight War.

[pmulcahy11b]

Drozd was replaced by Kontakt-1 on the Naval Infantry T-55s. Some T-55s later got Kontakt-5 (the T-55M5), but I'm not sure Naval Infantry ever got them. Kontakt-1 was a light ERA (1.2 tonnes, +80 AV vs. HEAT only), while Kontakt-5 is heavy (2.8 tonnes, +100 AV vs. Heat and +60 AV vs. KE).

To answer Paul's question, in the T2K timeline there would be Drozd and Arena for the active kill systems. Trophy's too new (early production was 2007, with acceptance in 2009 and first combat use in 2011), as are Afghanit, Iron Curtain, Iron Fist, and pretty much everything else other than Drozd and Arena.

On the ERA side, Blazer, Kontakt-1, and Kontakt-5 all entered service in the 1980s. For ones I haven't statted up, there's also Czechoslovakia's DYNA for the T-72M4Cz (I'm currently away from my books, but the manufacturer claims it increases effective armor thickness by 30% against KE and 120-170% against HEAT if anyone wants to run numbers). Other ERA systems (Relikt, Malachit, ARAT, ERAWA, ERAWA-2, CERAWA, Nozh, Duplets, SidePRO-CE, CLARA) are too new for the Twilight War.

All that gives the Russians a huge tactical advantage! I wonder how long it would take NATO to reverse-engineer some captured Drozd and Arena systems

[Vespers War]

The active protection systems likely wouldn't be worth it. Drozd only protected a 60-degree arc to the front of the turret, had a roughly 50% chance of intercept (it had difficulty tracking the altitude of incoming projectiles, making it less useful against top-attack ATGMs like Tank Breaker/Javelin), and had just 8 rockets. Arena has a much better arc (around 300 degrees) and more counter-rockets (20-26 depending on hull), but still only around a 55% chance of intercepting an incoming rocket.

Reverse-engineering ERA might be more fruitful. From a game perspective, Kontakt-5 on a T-72B would make the front glacis immune to 120mm L/44 ammunition as long as the blocks lasted, with an armor value of 248 vs HEAT and 208 vs KE. The turret front would only be vulnerable to KE at short range and immune to HEAT. Sides and rear would still be vulnerable, but less so. It's much better than Blazer, but I'm not sure how Super Blazer compared.

[unipus]

All that gives the Russians a huge tactical advantage! I wonder how long it would take NATO to reverse-engineer some captured Drozd and Arena systems

I'm not sure it gives them a huge advantage so much as it somewhat re-balances the existing huge Western advantage in advanced composite armor (and sensors). The problem anyway is that these systems would be employed on some % of the latest and greatest tanks -- which is the same as saying "the ones that get sent into the meatgrinder first." It may extend their survivability by a few days or even a string of a few battles, but that's probably about it.

In the scope of T2K I find it implausible that more of these than you could count on your fingers would still be operational anywhere.

[Raellus]

Quantity has a quality all its own

The problem anyway is that these systems would be employed on some % of the latest and greatest tanks -- which is the same as saying "the ones that get sent into the meatgrinder first." It may extend their survivability by a few days or even a string of a few battles, but that's probably about it.

I wonder if those first couple of thousand of the USSR's latest and greatest tanks sporting reactive armor wouldn't soak up so many of NATO's latest and greatest ATGMs and HEAT rounds before being killed off, that the follow up waves of reactive armor-less T-72s, T-62s, and T-55 wouldn't then be able to overwhelm the NATO defenders who now find themselves running low on advanced tank-killing ammo...

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[ChalkLine]

(clip great stuff)

Other ERA systems (Relikt, Malachit, ARAT, ERAWA, ERAWA-2, CERAWA, Nozh, Duplets, SidePRO-CE, CLARA) are too new for the Twilight War.

Kaktus, the precursor to Relikt, had almost finished testing by 2000

[Vespers War]

Kaktus, the precursor to Relikt, had almost finished testing by 2000

True, although its adoption would presumably depend on either Object 640 or the BMP-3 entering service, which is probably about as likely as the 140mm Abrams Thumper being part of the Twilight War. Kaktus presumably would have been somewhere between Kontakt-5 and Relikt in effectiveness. If it was halfway in-between, it'd be 150 AV vs HEAT and 110 vs KE, adding 2.5-3 tonnes to vehicle mass.

[ChalkLine]

True, although its adoption would presumably depend on either Object 640 or the BMP-3 entering service, which is probably about as likely as the 140mm Abrams Thumper being part of the Twilight War. Kaktus presumably would have been somewhere between Kontakt-5 and Relikt in effectiveness. If it was halfway in-between, it'd be 150 AV vs HEAT and 110 vs KE, adding 2.5-3 tonnes to vehicle mass.

Definitely the BMP-3 in lesser numbers. The Objekt 640 was pretty much sorted but was spread over too many republics. I reckon it's a GM call.
The APC and terminator versions would never have been built so if you saw them both vehicles would be in the same unit, a scary proposition especially as they're both thermal equipped. Their survival rate would be tiny though.