Tank Hatches

[dragoon500ly]

The armor protection of a tank is far from universal. In rough order, the thickest armor is on the turret front, hull front, turret sides, forward hull sides, turret rear, rear hull sides, turret top, hull bottom, hull rear.

Think of a 45 degree arc centered on the front of the tank, this is the area protected by the thickest armor thinning down towards the rear with the tail end of the tank protected by the least amount of armor.

Tankers are taught to keep a watchful eye to the flanks and rear when buttoned up. But with a four man crew focused on fighting and moving their tank, they can't watch all sides. This is why tanks are so vulnerable in MOUT fighting. There are simply too many ways of taking a pot shot at a tank that is not observed by the crew.

There is a story of a platoon of M-60A1s during the Panama Invasion that were ordered into a barrio after some of Noreiga's soldiers. One of the tanks had been hit by a dud RPG round and had backed around a corner and linked up with a platoon of light infantry. Th TC dismounted and held a 2-minute class on the use of the rear telephone hook-up on the tank. The squad leader would spot targets and the tank would use its 105mm to blow holes through buildings to allow the grunts access and to take out strong points.

It was so nice (NOT!) to read about how much institutional knowledge was lost, ignored or simply ignored because it was "old school" during the recent fighting.

[ArmySGT.]

The armor protection of a tank is far from universal. In rough order, the thickest armor is on the turret front, hull front, turret sides, forward hull sides, turret rear, rear hull sides, turret top, hull bottom, hull rear.

Think of a 45 degree arc centered on the front of the tank, this is the area protected by the thickest armor thinning down towards the rear with the tail end of the tank protected by the least amount of armor.

Tankers are taught to keep a watchful eye to the flanks and rear when buttoned up. But with a four man crew focused on fighting and moving their tank, they can't watch all sides. This is why tanks are so vulnerable in MOUT fighting. There are simply too many ways of taking a pot shot at a tank that is not observed by the crew.

There is a story of a platoon of M-60A1s during the Panama Invasion that were ordered into a barrio after some of Noreiga's soldiers. One of the tanks had been hit by a dud RPG round and had backed around a corner and linked up with a platoon of light infantry. Th TC dismounted and held a 2-minute class on the use of the rear telephone hook-up on the tank. The squad leader would spot targets and the tank would use its 105mm to blow holes through buildings to allow the grunts access and to take out strong points.

It was so nice (NOT!) to read about how much institutional knowledge was lost, ignored or simply ignored because it was "old school" during the recent fighting.

If every rumor I heard about the US 7th Light Infantry Division operations in Operation Just Cause are half true. The 7th Light is responsible for most of their own casualties from poor tactics and planning. Such as assaulting a building with entry teams from both ends simultaneously.

Never trusted a person that was taught at Planet Ord.

[dragoon500ly]

LOL! Tell me about it!

Just Cause was not one of the 7LIDs greater moments. I've talked to people who were assigned to the old 193rd Infantry Brigade and the comments about the light fighters are, brutal.

And I keep hearing rumors that a barracks on one of the US bases was targeted by the 7LID after they had received enemy fire from there....

It must be something in the water out at Ord!

[ArmySGT.]

Israeli style tank hatch

[Legbreaker]

That's not a hatch, that's just his helmet!

[bobcat]

interesting fact. tank hatches are very heavy. some TC's might forget to lock them in place when moveing. this gets interesting when the tank suddenly stops.

[dragoon500ly]

Good point, and while this may be valid on World War II designs, modern AFVs have an automatic lock that secures the hatch when fully open. The Israelis developed the first three position hatch (the orden hatch) that allowed the TC to partially open his hatch (and have better protection from fragmentation and small arms). The orden was slightly modified for use on the M-48A5 and was further refined for use on the M-1 series.

A lot of people complain about the three position hatches, some of the comments mention about how slow it is close, since the auto lock will catch on the partial position. In my own experience, this was never a problem, provided the TC held the lock in the disengaged position throughout as well as the grab bar and dropped, rapidly!

The most dangerous item on the M-1 TCs coupla is the breech of the Ma Deuce...especially if the driver dimes his brakes and the TC isn't holding own!

[bobcat]

Good point, and while this may be valid on World War II designs, modern AFVs have an automatic lock that secures the hatch when fully open. The Israelis developed the first three position hatch (the orden hatch) that allowed the TC to partially open his hatch (and have better protection from fragmentation and small arms). The orden was slightly modified for use on the M-48A5 and was further refined for use on the M-1 series.

A lot of people complain about the three position hatches, some of the comments mention about how slow it is close, since the auto lock will catch on the partial position. In my own experience, this was never a problem, provided the TC held the lock in the disengaged position throughout as well as the grab bar and dropped, rapidly!

The most dangerous item on the M-1 TCs coupla is the breech of the Ma Deuce...especially if the driver dimes his brakes and the TC isn't holding own!

im just going of the latest issue of PS. seems the've been having problems with that of late.

[dragoon500ly]

The brakes or the TC's slamming their faces into the machine gun

If its the brakes, they first noticed issues back in Desert Storm, a lot of the problem was simple dust contamination, there was a replacement seal that fixed the problem...haven't seen a copy of PS recently...

As for the TCs getting slammed...you rapidly learned to always brace yourself in the hatch and to ride with one arm resting on your forward vision block, holding your map, but ready to grab onto something. You also took the time to train your driver.

The brakes were also touchy on the M-1, but really was getting used to just how little foot power was needed to stop the tank. When the M-1 first came out, you were coming from M-60A1/A3s...and on those beasts you had to slam the brake just as hard as possible in order to get them to stop.

[Graebarde]

LOL! Tell me about it!

Just Cause was not one of the 7LIDs greater moments. I've talked to people who were assigned to the old 193rd Infantry Brigade and the comments about the light fighters are, brutal.

And I keep hearing rumors that a barracks on one of the US bases was targeted by the 7LID after they had received enemy fire from there....

It must be something in the water out at Ord!

My son was ending his first term at the time, stationed in Panama with the 1-508th. They rotated Light Fighters/Marines in before the incursion (as my son points out "we were already there so it was NOT an invasion" LOL). He said they (LF) had fire fights with howlers and fireflys in the jungle at night.

As for coordination with light fighters and tanks, it could have been some unit OTHER than 7LID that interacted with the tanks. The boys in 193IB were ALL light fighters, as was the eighty-douches once they were feet on the ground. But it was easy to ID the 7LID with their 'cool' ghillie net helmet covers.

FB

[dragoon500ly]

My son was ending his first term at the time, stationed in Panama with the 1-508th. They rotated Light Fighters/Marines in before the incursion (as my son points out "we were already there so it was NOT an invasion" LOL). He said they (LF) had fire fights with howlers and fireflys in the jungle at night.

As for coordination with light fighters and tanks, it could have been some unit OTHER than 7LID that interacted with the tanks. The boys in 193IB were ALL light fighters, as was the eighty-douches once they were feet on the ground. But it was easy to ID the 7LID with their 'cool' ghillie net helmet covers.

FB

The stories that I've heard from people who were stationed in the old canal zone have that the 7LID were more than a bit trigger happy. The official records all mention that they received enemy fire and replied with the least possible force. But there are too many stories making the rounds that have the Bayonet Division operating with a very, very loose version of the ROE. How true are the stories I don't know, wasn't there, but I hear these stories from people that I consider to be reliable.

As for the M-60 platoon, it was supposed to have been troops from the 193rd IB.

[Matt W]

Recommendation: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1483831/

There's a movie called "Lebanon" about the experiences of an Israeli tank crew in the 1982 war.

Some critics compared it to "Das Boot" in showing how unpleasant and uncomfortable life is when you're fighting from inside a metal box. (and how little you can see of the outside world)

[Tegyrius]

Necropost, but this seemed the most relevant of several threads on the topic. I recently ran across this article on visibility and situational awareness in AFVs:

https://www.tanknology.co.uk/post/afv-sa

The later part of the article gets into some technological solutions that would not be available in the T2k timeline. Overall, though, it's a good look at the difference between typical RPG/wargame battle maps in which everyone has complete awareness of the battlefield and the realities of restricted fields of view, limited information and communication, and fog of war.

- C.

[.45cultist]

A Thermite grenade or two and tape or sandbags might open a hatch, if the crew doesn't use the muzzle blast of the 120MM to injure or kill the attackers.
I read somewhere it could be lethal up to 60 feet away.

[dragoon500ly]

A Thermite grenade or two and tape or sandbags might open a hatch, if the crew doesn't use the muzzle blast of the 120MM to injure or kill the attackers.
I read somewhere it could be lethal up to 60 feet away.

When I was on active duty (the 70s-80s) I only saw thermite grenades at one point. They simply are not that common an issue.
You'd have better luck with a satchel charge and several sandbags, but the best effect you might get is dislodging the coupla, maybe.
Your best bet would most likely be to use a LAW or RPG and hit the hatch from above and allow the jet to wreck havoc on the crew.