Aircraft In 2000

[Webstral]

Oh, I should mention "my" view of Orlando in T2k has the local MilGov cantonment forces with a couple of flyable helos.

Write us something. We've been a little dry lately.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

That's a big maybe, IMHO. Those planes would need a lot of maintainance to become airworthy again. It's not like dusting off the Red Barchetta in the garage and firing it up for a Sunday drive. Parts may or may not be an issue (seems like a perfect scenario for cannibalization but I'm pretty sure that most electrical components are removed from the airframe before storage) but finding skilled aircraft mechanics probably would be. It also assumes that the Mexican military hasn't done anything with the aircraft either. They could have tried to resurrect some of them and/or they could have trashed them.

Assuming they didn't trash them, if they get any more than a few flying they'd crush the already crippled US forces once and for all. Total air supremacy courtesy of a couple of flights of Skyraiders or AC47s pretty much dooms the US.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Write us something. We've been a little dry lately.

I never did finish my "Handout for departing troops" did I I'll get crackin'.

[Webstral]

Total air supremacy courtesy of a couple of flights of Skyraiders or AC47s pretty much dooms the US.

That's a bit extreme, although no doubt C.L. Chennault would agree with you wholeheartedly. Assuming that "a couple of flights" adds up to four or so aircraft, each of which generates a sortie a day over the long haul (this is Twilight: 2000), then this amounts to four opportunities to attack US troops with one aircraft once per day. This does not amount to a Mexican ability to overrun and occupy the continental United States or anything remotely like it. A handful of CAS aircraft certainly would be powerful force multipliers for the Mexicans. However, I don't think even a zealous zoomie would say that a small package of even the legendary A-1 would completely upset the balance of power across 1500+ miles of what passes for front from 1998-2001.

[headquarters]

war after TDM

That's a bit extreme, although no doubt C.L. Chennault would agree with you wholeheartedly. Assuming that "a couple of flights" adds up to four or so aircraft, each of which generates a sortie a day over the long haul (this is Twilight: 2000), then this amounts to four opportunities to attack US troops with one aircraft once per day. This does not amount to a Mexican ability to overrun and occupy the continental United States or anything remotely like it. A handful of CAS aircraft certainly would be powerful force multipliers for the Mexicans. However, I don't think even a zealous zoomie would say that a small package of even the legendary A-1 would completely upset the balance of power across 1500+ miles of what passes for front from 1998-2001.

There certainly wouldnt be any significant results in the short run - no blitz tactic could be employes due to only 4-5 CAS prop a/c. But in the longer run, being able to strike with semi impunity the war would turn against the US loyalists still holding out. ( In this specific scenario - bear in mind - forces are mostly scattered about with few concentrated forces). Taking out smaller posts /units one at the time will as the seasons pass lead to posts being evacuated as attack draws nigh. Standing your ground is not an option to most when it will lead to a no-gains sacrifice.

all in my humble opinion. As for airwar - making AA weapons has always been the traditional countertactic against air superiority. Any thoughts on make shift AA weapons Could a missile be made in a garage that homes in on its target The Germans did it in 1945 and they had to develop it from scratch.

http://www.luft46.com/missile/x-4.html

Given access to modern plans - and electronics - could you make SAMs in T2K I think it is as plausible as refurbishing WWII planes and attacking the enemy. Using a jet that burns a ton of fuel were a prop plane that use 100 liters doesnt make sense imho. Air superiority isnt measured by the cold war standards in T2K is my 2 cents- more like WWI.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Given access to modern plans - and electronics - could you make SAMs in T2K I think it is as plausible as refurbishing WWII planes and attacking the enemy. Using a jet that burns a ton of fuel were a prop plane that use 100 liters doesnt make sense imho. Air superiority isnt measured by the cold war standards in T2K is my 2 cents- more like WWI.

Well, the upshot is that in the event that someone brings a small number of a/c to the CONUS to use as local air supremacy they're going to find themselves up against a fusillade of AA fire once they become a known threat. I have been told that equipping the AH64 for AIM-9 use is a "simple" field modification. In that spirit I could see ad-hoc SAM vehicles being cobbled together using Sidewinders and 2.5 ton trucks and improvised launch rails. Nothing fancy, mind you, just one guy with a pair of headphones and a firing switch, listening for the "growl" while sitting in the truck cab, with a rack of 'winders pointed downrange towards the FEBA.

Plus stocks of Redeyes, Stingers, etc. that might still be on hand in the US.

Worse (for the enemy a/c) you take a situational (although admittedly non-canon) thing like my "Florida JMC" where they have two working helos and couple that with ad-hoc missile usage and there's a serious threat for enemy a/c. Not in the sense that a Bell Jetranger would be trying to dogfight a Skyraider, mind. I could just see one coordinating with ground forces, hiding behind a building or hills, then when the guys on the ground call for it, popping out, getting a lock, and firing off whatever missiles, then popping back down. Hopefully the enemy's so confident of their own air supremacy and not expecting to get bounced like that they won't see it coming.

[Legbreaker]

Of course in the US there's the School Brigade with their oversupply of dedicated AA vehicles. If the Mexicans had air superiority, I can see Milgov moving heaven and earth to get that unit down there asap.

[Olefin]

FYI one aircraft that you wouldnt think could be available in T2K would be the Grumman Avenger - while there werent that many outside the US there are still even today a significant amount of airworthy Avengers in the US

almost all are TBM-3 and 3E versions but at last count there are at least 33 flyable airworthy planes still in the US and another 25 or so that are either being restored or are on display and could be used to get spare parts

and they are versatile aircraft - you could arm them with bombs or depth charges or just use them for patrol aircraft

you wouldnt want to operate them in areas that still had SAM's or modern aircraft still working - but in other areas they would still be effective

[Raellus]

I guess in some cases, some operational aircraft are better than none, but the Avengers probably wouldn't be worth the trouble to operate, except for as reconnaissance aircraft. As attack aircraft, TBFs would be very vulnerable to modern AAA and even small arms fire. To avoid it, a TBF would have to drop bombs from a significantly higher altitude, seriously compromising accuracy.

Avengers worked as light bombers during WWII because they were usually escorted by scores of Hellcats, which would strafe AAA positions to hell just before or as the Avengers started their bombing runs, allowing the TBFs to drop their bombs unmolested. And Japanese troops were equipped with relatively few automatic weapons, so ground fire from infantry was a negligible threat.

Unless you're operating TBFs against lightly armed bandits, or dropping bombs from beyond effective small arms range, I don't think Avengers are suited to even low intensity modern warfare, a la T2K.

[Vespers War]

One potentially useful place (and one that raketenjagdpanzer should be familiar with) is Kermit Weeks' Fantasy of Flight. Kermit inherited a bunch of money from an oil explorer grandfather and decided to spend a bunch of it on preserving warbirds, with an emphasis on keeping them in flying condition. He has the only remaining flyable Martin Marauder and Short Sunderland, as well as an F4U Corsair, a Spitfire Mk.16, a pair of P-51s (one C and one D), and a B-25 Mitchell. For more utilitarian flying, there's a Curtiss Robin, Ford Tri-Motor (the same one from Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom), Stinson Tri-Motor, and the last airworthy Sikorsky S-39 flying boat.

As I'm writing this, I think it may have been brought up before with some question of whether the New America enclave near Tampa could have gotten there with the damage and hostile parties described in canon.

[RN7]

Despite the effects of EMP I think there are quite a few aircraft of all types still about in T2K for the reasons already mentioned by natehale1971 and others.

I would say that both the U.S. and Soviets still has hundreds of them in T2K, but very few are still operational outside of the still oil rich Middle East. The reason for my thinking is a reference to French airpower in Going Home SB on page 30.

"French units in the dead zone are in constant radio communication with their base. If they get into more trouble than they can handle alone, they can call for and receive support in the form of airstrikes or airmobile reinforcements (unlike their opponents, the French Army still has a small quantity of functional aircraft and the fuel to run them). Avgas does not grow on trees,
however, and the platoon who calls for aviation help had better have a good reason for doing so.

Reaction Force: This consists of a helicopter-borne patrol (generally Elite, but often Good) carried in three Puma transport helicopters, and two Gazelle helicopters (one ground attack and one anti-tank version!. It is dispatched against threats which the foot patrols have encountered, but feel are too large for them to handle."

This only references French Army aviation, but if the French Army is still operating a force of helicopters on the border with Germany and the Netherlands then I would assume that the French Air Force still has some operational combat and support aircraft in Europe. Although France sat out the war in Europe until it moved on the Rhineland in 1998 to defend its borders, France is in Europe and would also be affected by EMP from nuclear detonations across Europe. The main difference between France and the other powers in Europe is that the French have aviation fuel to keep an air force of off unknown size flying.

[Legbreaker]

My thoughts are EMP probably effected them as much as anyone, but France still has relatively intact industry to build replacement parts and electronics (after those industries themselves have been repaired of course).
What France doesn't have are slag piles where cities and infrastructure used to be.
So yes in 2000 they have helicopters and probably a few fixed wing craft too, but they're just the handful they've been able to return to service so far (explaining why calling for it is reserved for emergencies). Give it another few years and their airpower would likely be back to full strength again (provided they've got the pilots).

[Olefin]

I guess in some cases, some operational aircraft are better than none, but the Avengers probably wouldn't be worth the trouble to operate, except for as reconnaissance aircraft. As attack aircraft, TBFs would be very vulnerable to modern AAA and even small arms fire. To avoid it, a TBF would have to drop bombs from a significantly higher altitude, seriously compromising accuracy.

Avengers worked as light bombers during WWII because they were usually escorted by scores of Hellcats, which would strafe AAA positions to hell just before or as the Avengers started their bombing runs, allowing the TBFs to drop their bombs unmolested. And Japanese troops were equipped with relatively few automatic weapons, so ground fire from infantry was a negligible threat.

Unless you're operating TBFs against lightly armed bandits, or dropping bombs from beyond effective small arms range, I don't think Avengers are suited to even low intensity modern warfare, a la T2K.

Recon is exactly the mission I was thinking about - that and being used against groups that dont have anything beyond light machine guns for AA and using them at medium altitude as bombers - keep in mind just having an airplane you can use for recon and spotting is a huge advantage even if its not used in any kind of attack mode - and as opposed to a Cessna the plane was built for combat - i.e. it can take hits and keep going if it has to

[WallShadow]

(SNIP)
I'll resist the temptation to use this as an opportunity to repeat everything I've written about airships and the saving grace PCs can deliver to Milgov as a result of developments in Airlords of the Ozarks.

To be honest, I think the supercoolers/refrigeration units used by the original owners to keep their helium supply liquid might prove useful in separating out air gases by differential distillation, unless I misinterpreted the text.

[WallShadow]

(Here there bee snippinge)
Getting back to the topic of aircraft, I read a short story years ago (can't remember the author or more than general details) about a future where corporate wars were the only way to settle disputes, takeovers, etc. Technology was restricted to pre 1900 (I think) with black powder weapons predominant, no vehicles, and certainly no aircraft. Often the "war" would be won without a shot being fired as the larger company could afford to amass a larger mercenary army and essentially guarantee victory.
Our hero chose to join the smaller side, promising victory to the board of directors by use of an undisclosed advantage in return for a massive reward when he delivered.
His plan Using something like a hang glider (the first one in history flew just before the tech cut off date - a fact only a handful of people knew) as an observation and command and control post. It would allow his side to spot the enemy much sooner and manoeuvre to greater effect, thereby negating the enemy's greater numbers.

I'll see your hang-glider and raise you...kites! South Asian/Indian fighting kites have been on record for centuries. AND...the United States Signal Corps used huge box kites at the end of the 19th century for Meteorological and Communications purposes. Surely one large enough for a (hopefully parachute-equipped) observer could be built