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**ArmySGT.** · 09-16-2011, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by natehale1971 View Post

The Inspector General and JAG Corps will still be operating to keep some kind of order among the US Armed Forces no matter where they are stationed... and this is an encounter group that would be good for campaigns that are set prior to 'The Escape for Kalisz' or even afterwards during those campaigns that are set in units that were not part of the 5ID...

The CID team would investigate the major crimes impartially with the local MP detachments.

The judiciary detachment would set up the court that would hold a full courts marital instead of the usual commander's non-judicial punishment for lesser offensives could handle.... While the MPs would be there to provide defense for the detachment as they travel from cantonment to cantonment in a manner like Circuit Judges of the Old West.

While the majority of offenses would be some kind of NJP of hard labor while you're sleeping in the stockade, there are still offenses that would would warant a higher authority that is outside the controls of Divisional or even Corps command (and thus a higher rank held by the military judge). And the Courts Martial proceedures would need to be tweaked to deal with the composition of the Jury for offenders who are of a higher rank than Major.

Have a look at the MCM. The penalties change in Time of War and Location.
What could be NJP or 30 days confinement at Peace is summary execution in War. With allowance for a Commander to take action immediately in some cases. Insubordination, Conspiring with the Enemy.
Whatever your doing, you probably violated Art 92.

Originally posted by natehale1971 View Post

Judiciary Detachment

M998A1 HMMWV utility cargo truck w/a M107A2 400gal tank trailer
M998A1 HMMWV utility cargo truck w/a M107A2 400gal tank trailer

Need a Deuce or a 5 ton to pull that trailer or your going to blow the tranny on a Hummer.
8x4= 32. 3200 lbs of water plus the dry weight of the trailer.

Originally posted by natehale1971 View Post

Criminal Investigations Team

M998A1 HMMWV utility cargo truck w/a M1101 3/4-ton high mobility cargo trailer
CW2/CW3/CW4 <>, CID Special Agent Warrant Officer:
SGT/SSG/SFC/MSG <>, CID Special Agent NCO:

CID can escort themselves. The Protective details surrounding Three Star Generals and up are CID agents augmented by MPs when necessary. CID Agents are likely to have been to the PSD school. The have friends (Three Stars and up.) CID will have uparmors, Helos, and boats if they need them.

Originally posted by natehale1971 View Post

Military Police Protective Detail Escort

Redundant.

Originally posted by natehale1971 View Post

Motorcycle Escorts: This part of the MP Escort Detachment uses off-road dirtbikes for recon and screening.

Took the Motorcycles away in the 70s. Safety dont ya know.

**natehale1971** · 09-16-2011, 05:42 PM

The Protective escot is not for the CID team. But the Judiciary team...

The CID Team operates by themselves, going ahead of the judiciary team and it's escort like the US Marshals of the old west. They arrive at a cantanoment that has said they've got a problem, and investigate it. If the problem is bigger than the commander of the cantonment's ability to judge impartially they place the call for judiciary detachment who then comes with their MP escort.

And while the MPs don't currently have motorcycle escorts, in a T2k setting, the motorcycles have a good flexibity that Humvees don't....

I didn't know about the weight, the 400gal trailers were the only ones i could find the identifications for.. they carry fuel for their convoy, and supplies that they might need to support themselves (and possibly escort the offenders back to upper echelon command).

Using WW2 as a model of the Inspector General and JAG Corps, the military justice system was very interesting. It's what gave me the idea for this little ecounter group.

**copeab** · 09-16-2011, 05:47 PM

I ... just see too many officers ordering summary executions in 2000. No investigation. No trial. Sorry.

**natehale1971** · 09-16-2011, 05:57 PM

Being that draconian would be very... counter-productive. If enlisted persons know that any infraction can end up with an execution done out of hand without some kind of due process and wonder what the hell they're fighting for... because that's how the Soviets (or at least that's what we've been told) do. and ask the question 'Aren't we suppose to be better than those guys' and could easily see the personnel committing mutinity if they see the officer in charge as a maritante who is just shooting people.

And as I said.. this would be a more apt ecounter for campaigns BEFORE the overun at Kalisz and the destruction of 5ID, unless you are playing a game set with another unit that wasn't overrun. Or back in the United States.

During WW2 I have read of civilians asking the US Army to investgiate and help with providing justice for criminal offenses. This is what gave me the idea for this kind of encounter. They'd be dealing with not just US Armed Forces comitting crimes... but also dealing with civilan locals to keep the peace.

While taking a group of marauders you've captured and lining them up and shooting them might feel good... it doesn't change the fact that SOME of the people in a marauder group MIGHT have been innocent or confined their attacks to enemy units.

**ArmySGT.** · 09-16-2011, 06:17 PM

Your MP Teams are to big.

MPs are Three Man Teams. Three Teams to a Squad, Three Squads in a Division MP Co, Four Squads in a Corps MP Company.

Team Leader, Driver, Gunner.

A Corps MP Squad is three Teams plus a Squad Leader. Divisionals Three Teams but, the Squad Leader is the Team Leader for one Team.

Dogs and Dog Handlers are a Detachment from a Detachment. Not many Patrol Dogs; drug sniffing dogs are the majority, and bomb sniffing dogs that are on a near permanent loan to CID and the Secret Service.

Convoy Escorts. This is a Major tasker for MPs. My unit did 188,000 convoys in 2003 to 2004. That is not a typo.

Convoys are formed by a Corps level Traffic Control unit. This tells them routs, departure times, and gives a hazards briefing.

Units are pieced together and the Senior Officer is the Convoy Commander. The MPs will separate from the convoy and fight to protect it. While the convoy moves out of the kill zone and to a rally point.

Any of those Detachments today would move in a two truck minimum with atleast one gun truck. M998 must travel with an M1025 for example.

Fuel. No fuel trailers. There are HEMMT fuel tankers, fuel blivets, and fuel pods. Fuel pods can be strapped to a trailer. That trailer is the larger two axle type and I don't remember the nomenclature. Fuel pods work by gravity, Fuel blivets can work by gravity, usually with pumps maintained by fuel units, or another vehicle can very slowly mash down the blivet with wheels or tracks forcing fuel out of the blivet.

Those are water trailers. The "Water Buffaloes" There are desert models with a chiller that dispenses cold water if there is electricity for the chiller.

The water purified with bleach tastes like ass.

**ArmySGT.** · 09-16-2011, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by natehale1971 View Post

Being that draconian would be very... counter-productive. If enlisted persons know that any infraction can end up with an execution done out of hand without some kind of due process and wonder what the hell they're fighting for... because that's how the Soviets (or at least that's what we've been told) do. and ask the question 'Aren't we suppose to be better than those guys' and could easily see the personnel committing mutinity if they see the officer in charge as a maritante who is just shooting people.

Depends greatly. Armies work by cooperation. Everyones does what they are told and when they need to do it.

That insubordinate asshole, that won't pull his weight, do his guard duty, build the fighting positions. He is just a liability.

Liabilities get other guys, good guys killed.

If your CO pulled his M9 and shot that ass on the spot. He might well be cheered.

I can bet a good number of "accidentals, other than Combat" deaths are the Lowers getting rid of guys that fuck them over.

In-subordinates are a liability and only other insubordinate and malcontents can't seem to get it.

**natehale1971** · 09-16-2011, 06:28 PM

Okay...

I couldn't find anything on the size of MP units, so I just 'guessed' how they'd be set up... The way i thought the escorts would work, would be kind of like this... Or are they spaced differently

MP Escort Dirtbike
MP Escort Humvee
Judiciary Detachment Humvee (Advocate)
MP Escort Dirtbike

MP Escort Dirtbike
MP Escort Humvee
Judiciary Detachment Humvee (Administrator)
Judicary Detachment Humvee (Military Judge)
MP Escort Dirtbike

MP Escort Dirtbike
MP Escort Humvee
Judiciary Detachment Humvee (Advocate)
MP Escort Dirtbike

**natehale1971** · 09-16-2011, 06:35 PM

Insubortination isn't what the Judicary Detachment would be sent for... enlisted insubordinate personnel would be introduced to what we called 'Blanket Parties' in the Navy, or other means of the troops taking troublemakers and dealing with them in a way that wouldn't kill them. But more or less put them on the straight and narrow. if that doesn't work, then yes... the officer would shot them.

But what about when officers are abusing their authority Or the Civilians accuse soldiers of rape or theft in the civilian community that a cantonment depends upon for support, and there is evidence that YOUR people did it, but not Which One that did it

Originally posted by ArmySGT. View Post

Depends greatly. Armies work by cooperation. Everyones does what they are told and when they need to do it.

That insubordinate asshole, that won't pull his weight, do his guard duty, build the fighting positions. He is just a liability.

Liabilities get other guys, good guys killed.

If your CO pulled his M9 and shot that ass on the spot. He might well be cheered.

I can bet a good number of "accidentals, other than Combat" deaths are the Lowers getting rid of guys that fuck them over.

In-subordinates are a liability and only other insubordinate and malcontents can't seem to get it.

**ArmySGT.** · 09-16-2011, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by natehale1971 View Post

Okay...

I couldn't find anything on the size of MP units, so I just 'guessed' how they'd be set up... The way i thought the escorts would work, would be kind of like this... Or are they spaced differently

MP Escort Dirtbike
MP Escort Humvee
Judiciary Detachment Humvee (Advocate)
MP Escort Dirtbike

MP Escort Dirtbike
MP Escort Humvee
Judiciary Detachment Humvee (Administrator)
Judicary Detachment Humvee (Military Judge)
MP Escort Dirtbike

MP Escort Dirtbike
MP Escort Humvee
Judiciary Detachment Humvee (Advocate)
MP Escort Dirtbike

MP Gun Truck (Scout) E5 100 to 500 meters ahead. M2HB

50 Meter intervals
MP Gun truck E6 Mk19 w/SAW

JAG hummer
JAG Hummer
JAG hummer

MP Gun truck E5 Mk19 W/SAW

MP don't operate dirt bikes. Last bike were Harley's from the 70's. If there were then they would be scouts out front.

Movement Control would try to set it up so that the JAG would be part of another convoy. Safety in numbers.

**ArmySGT.** · 09-16-2011, 07:05 PM

Originally posted by natehale1971 View Post

Insubortination isn't what the Judicary Detachment would be sent for... enlisted insubordinate personnel would be introduced to what we called 'Blanket Parties' in the Navy, or other means of the troops taking troublemakers and dealing with them in a way that wouldn't kill them. But more or less put them on the straight and narrow. if that doesn't work, then yes... the officer would shot them.

But what about when officers are abusing their authority Or the Civilians accuse soldiers of rape or theft in the civilian community that a cantonment depends upon for support, and there is evidence that YOUR people did it, but not Which One that did it

When the fight was still on in 2003, the action for crimes was........ Later.

Into the summer 2003 when it moved to Stability ops and convoy escorts. The Iraqi National Police were press ganged into Iraqi on Iraqi crime. We just followed and enforce "Due Process".

As for what your advocating that is the CID and the IG. The Judge (LTC and above) usually take residence in a nice big safe rear area and the Court is held there.

As for "War Crimes" and criminal acts by Soldiers on Civilians. They go before the Court the Court doesn't come to them.

JAG is both the Prosecutor and the Defense.

**natehale1971** · 09-16-2011, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by ArmySGT. View Post

MP Gun Truck (Scout) E5 100 to 500 meters ahead. M2HB

50 Meter intervals
MP Gun truck E6 Mk19 w/SAW

JAG hummer
JAG Hummer
JAG hummer

MP Gun truck E5 Mk19 W/SAW

MP don't operate dirt bikes. Last bike were Harley's from the 70's. If there were then they would be scouts out front.

Movement Control would try to set it up so that the JAG would be part of another convoy. Safety in numbers.

You mean like a Supply Convoy

Instead of dirtbikes i was thinking of all-terrain motorcycles with sidecars. The Soviets (and from what i've been told, the Russians still do) used them extensively.

Can you tell me how MP Checkpoints would be set up I had gone with this for them...

M998A1 HMMWV utility cargo truck w/a M105A2 11/2-ton high mobility cargo trailer
SGT <>, Team Leader:
SPC <>, Combat Field Medic:
SPC <>, Radio-Telephone Operator:
SPC <>, Designated Marksman:
PFC <>, HMMWV Gunner:
PFC <>, HMMWV Driver:
SPC <name>, MP Dog Handler:
PVT <name>, Working Dog:

The Gunner and Driver positions could be rotated so the soldiers could get in out of the weather... the HMMWV would be up-armored model. The Designated Marksman position would be set up to preform overwatch. The RTO and CFM would be there for support during medical emergencies and keep them in contact with support. I'm not sure if the Working Dog would be a bomb sniffer or other kind of working dog.

I also thought of a working dog with the mortuary affairs teams... but couldn't find info on the mortuary teams that showed them using them. I found how they are organized, and didn't see them being used with the search and recovery teams.

I've been working on notes for the Mail Services... pony express type using horses and dirtbikes (or bikes with sidecars so they can carry packages like in WW2).

**natehale1971** · 09-16-2011, 07:25 PM

Originally posted by ArmySGT. View Post

When the fight was still on in 2003, the action for crimes was........ Later.

Into the summer 2003 when it moved to Stability ops and convoy escorts. The Iraqi National Police were press ganged into Iraqi on Iraqi crime. We just followed and enforce "Due Process".

As for what your advocating that is the CID and the IG. The Judge (LTC and above) usually take residence in a nice big safe rear area and the Court is held there.

As for "War Crimes" and criminal acts by Soldiers on Civilians. They go before the Court the Court doesn't come to them.

JAG is both the Prosecutor and the Defense.

Yup, that's why there is too Advocates and a single mil. judge was on the judiciary team. courts that are needed for the full blown courts martial (or to punish offiers of MAJ and higher rank) would see the offender being carted back to the rear where the LTC or Higher Military Judge would deal with them.

The biggest thing I see the Judiciary Detachment dealing with would be crimes that the civilians bring to the attention of the the army in their area but can't deal with on their own. Especially when there ISN'T local legal measures (especially when the military is the only acting government around).

**ArmySGT.** · 09-16-2011, 07:42 PM

Originally posted by natehale1971 View Post

You mean like a Supply Convoy

Instead of dirtbikes i was thinking of all-terrain motorcycles with sidecars. The Soviets (and from what i've been told, the Russians still do) used them extensively.

Can you tell me how MP Checkpoints would be set up I had gone with this for them...

M998A1 HMMWV utility cargo truck w/a M105A2 11/2-ton high mobility cargo trailer
SGT <>, Team Leader:
SPC <>, Combat Field Medic:
SPC <>, Radio-Telephone Operator:
SPC <>, Designated Marksman:
PFC <>, HMMWV Gunner:
PFC <>, HMMWV Driver:
SPC <name>, MP Dog Handler:
PVT <name>, Working Dog:

The Gunner and Driver positions could be rotated so the soldiers could get in out of the weather... the HMMWV would be up-armored model. The Designated Marksman position would be set up to preform overwatch. The RTO and CFM would be there for support during medical emergencies and keep them in contact with support. I'm not sure if the Working Dog would be a bomb sniffer or other kind of working dog.

I also thought of a working dog with the mortuary affairs teams... but couldn't find info on the mortuary teams that showed them using them. I found how they are organized, and didn't see them being used with the search and recovery teams.

I've been working on notes for the Mail Services... pony express type using horses and dirtbikes (or bikes with sidecars so they can carry packages like in WW2).

Oh crap. Well you don't need much do you.

FM 19-4

**natehale1971** · 09-16-2011, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by ArmySGT. View Post

Oh crap. Well you don't need much do you.

FM 19-4

LOL... well, you seem to know about the subject, so I wanted to ask!

If you want to know anything about Carrier operations, i can provide alot of info...

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T2K JAG type campaign...

T2K JAG type campaign...

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