Am I opening a can of worms here? I think I am...M113...

[copeab]

"Wellsir, that's a fine lookin' M48 you got there. Served on one in Vietnam with the 24th. You too Small world, ain't it Lissen, we got an offer to make you and your family. How'd you like three squares a day, a bunch of grease monkeys to help you keep that and that halftrack running, and a bandit-free perimeter to live in" Then suddenly Joe the slightly odd guy who owns his own tank is now Joe the military contractor for MilGov's 11th Provisional Armored Cavalry Company in Valdosta, GA...

You have a higher view of MilGov than I do. I picture it more like:

"That M48's operational Got an offer to make you. You give it to us and we don't kill you and your sons and rape your womenfolk and then take them with us as comfort girls. Sound like a deal"

Not that CivGov would give a better offer.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

You have a higher view of MilGov than I do. I picture it more like:

"That M48's operational Got an offer to make you. You give it to us and we don't kill you and your sons and rape your womenfolk and then take them with us as comfort girls. Sound like a deal"

Not that CivGov would give a better offer.

Well it's the "Gov" part that I thi...wait, let me start over.

After the war, I think both sides are going to be so needful of the people's support for whatever comes after things settle down that they're going to try more carrot and less stick. Yeah, an answer of "Get off my lawn, you gub'mint folks!" would probably be met with your response, though...

[Targan]

MilGov would take possession of any armor they could locate, no doubt. If a private owner had papers proving ownership my guess is that MilGov would at the very least give the owner a receipt and some sort of promise of recompense at a later date (and maybe even some sort of consideration at the time such as food, medicine, a promise of protection etc). If the private owner couldn't prove legitimate ownership of the item and/or was beligerant the seizure of the vehicle would be on less friendly terms I suspect.

[natehale1971]

You have a higher view of MilGov than I do. I picture it more like:

"That M48's operational Got an offer to make you. You give it to us and we don't kill you and your sons and rape your womenfolk and then take them with us as comfort girls. Sound like a deal"

Not that CivGov would give a better offer.

In your world maybe... I don't see something like that happening. New America yes. MilGov... Not so much, they'd see the person who has it as either knowing how to operate or use it. And a resource they would want to use. While CivGov would just come in and take it and anything else they found they wanted with the statement of "You shouldn't have these weapons, and for the welfare and betterment of everyone we are confiscating this" and there are all those FEMA regs support me on that feeling.

[ArmySGT.]

One thing about the stock M113 that gets me... is that it's armor is so damn light that a .50cal heavy machinegun punches throught it, but other nations have been doing variants of the M113 that are better armored and more flexible. I've thought about what happens with the M113 in my extended version of the 1st Edition timeline of Twilight 2000.

Namely being used by the Police, the State Guards and the border patrol (ie, United States Territorial Guard that in my setting was created by the US Congress in the years before the Twilight War). Jobs that were originally seen as needing lightly armored vehicles that would protect against small arms, and most would have felt wouldn't ever run up against heavy weapons.

Jobs better suited to lightly armored WHEELED vehicles. Tracks are maintenance intensive and burn through to much fuel for security patrols.

I could see the Border patrol using M113 is the roughest terrain or the most dangerous areas.

The .gov could contract from Loomis (makes their own armored cars) to build security vehicles.

[Ronin]

Jobs better suited to lightly armored WHEELED vehicles. Tracks are maintenance intensive and burn through to much fuel for security patrols.

I could see the Border patrol using M113 is the roughest terrain or the most dangerous areas.

The .gov could contract from Loomis (makes their own armored cars) to build security vehicles.

Seems like the M1117 (Successor to the Cadillac Gage Commando) might be a good fit for what you are suggesting.

[ArmySGT.]

Seems like the M1117 (Successor to the Cadillac Gage Commando) might be a good fit for what you are suggesting.

It is a V-150. Hasn't changed all that much since the XM706.

Ironically, during my time in Iraq the MP Companies with these worked in Baghdad protecting convoys to and from BIAP to the Green Zone.

While we escorted convoys from Talil AB to BIAP or the fuel depot (civilian) in Mahmudiyah. Using M114s and M1025s.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/asv.htm

I am thinking that by this late in Twilight, the factory is nuked or running full tilt to supply U.S. Allies like Portugal and Spain with replacement parts and vehicles. So a civilian source making armored cars on civilian chassis would be available and provide what is adequate for the task.

[Legbreaker]

Used properly, the M113 is adequate on most battlefields. With a proper crew using the terrain, and NOT acting like a tank (ie rolling over the top of heavily armed opponents) the '13 performs quite well.
Basically, if an enemy is known to possess anything heavier than 7.62, the '13s should stay well back and let the infantry destroy the heavy weapons. Hull down and providing fire support once they've dropped the infantry off is the best way to use them in that situation.
Should an enemy be armed with nothing more than rifles and medium machineguns, then the '13 can roll in and crush the enemy (litterally!)

Just because a vehicle has light armour, doesn't make it useless on the battlefield. The tactics have to be adjusted of course, and the commanders need to be aware of the limitations of their vehicles.

[natehale1971]

I'm looking for something that would be cost effective and that new construction wouldn't be necessary for the units being sent to Police, State Guard, Territorial Guard units.

It's the reason i was asking if the decommissioned M113s would be cost effective and useful for those kinds of units, or bring more return by just having them scrapped.

[ArmySGT.]

I'm looking for something that would be cost effective and that new construction wouldn't be necessary for the units being sent to Police, State Guard, Territorial Guard units.

It's the reason i was asking if the decommissioned M113s would be cost effective and useful for those kinds of units, or bring more return by just having them scrapped.

Worth far, far more as hulls than as scrap metal. Even if it was political capital doing a lend lease deal with an Ally.

[natehale1971]

Thank you SGT...

That gives me some ideas... in a highened threat level world, older hulls (armored vehicles and naval vessels) being sold or given to allies would be a good idea. how hard is it to turn an already existing M113 hull into one of the variants is the mod of say a stock M113 into a variant something that can be done quickly and economically

[ArmySGT.]

M113 into an M113A3 Stripped to the hull and introduced into the assembly line. Whatever time it takes to assemble an M113A3, a week, two weeks, or just a few hours I have no idea.

If it is not a fundamental change to the hull like a large turret, would not say much more.

A lot of things are done, then the equipment is shipped to the Ally so the Ally completes the Mod to their specs. Like radio mounts, weapons mounts, fording gear, night vision, etc.

The Ally fits it to meet their supply chain.

The Leopard and the M113 are similar, NATO standard but, National specific models.

[natehale1971]

i see... the bad thing is, the biggest allies i see getting the M113s that were not sold/given to the police, state guard and territorial guard during the years before the Euro-Soviet War would have been the PRC and Mexico in my altered timeline.

[Legbreaker]

Turning one into a mortar carrier or that level of alteration is possible, given the right tools and materials. Not sure how easy that would be in T2K when every last existing hull is likely to be refurbished rather than altered. Replacing old parts is much simpler than cutting and shutting...

[Fusilier]

Replacing old parts is much simpler than cutting and shutting...

I'll wager the M113 parts are very easy to produce. When I was in Vietnam I saw countless old war era M113s still being used by the military and they wouldn't have been ordering replacement parts from the USA over these last few decades.