Am I opening a can of worms here? I think I am...M113...

[pmulcahy11b]

That 113-howitzer looks like it maybe has an L/25 gun barrel -- better suited as an assault gun than a howitzer.

[Panther Al]

True, shorter tube, but looking at the elevation it can get, and comparing it to the earlier StuG and StuH, I think StuH is the proper designation here. So, it can get some indirect fire (Perhaps not out to the range that a 105 should get, but more than direct fire).

[Webstral]

under no circumstances was it [the M4] to get into a gun fight with another tank.

It makes one smile quietly to oneself, doesnt it

Assault guns would come back into play: But not as factory made machines prior to the war: I think what would happen is as vehicles are beat up, and damaged beyond repair into the original shape and form, they would be cannibalized into AG's to be given to second echelon units to free up better machines for the first line units.

I concur. I do think theres some chance that the fighting in China might inspire a few of the more enterprising types to construct prototype assault guns. The West Germans, who have a history with the type and who probably are inclined to take the lessons coming out of China to heart more than the other NATO partners, seem like good candidates for the construction of prototypes. Either way, though, I agree that there will not be a type standardized assault gun for the US Army. I cant promise that the USMC wont see the value of a light, compact large caliber gun platform for direct support of the infantry. Of course, in 1996 they might still be using the M60 A3/4.

[Panther Al]

It makes one smile quietly to oneself, doesnt it



I concur. I do think theres some chance that the fighting in China might inspire a few of the more enterprising types to construct prototype assault guns. The West Germans, who have a history with the type and who probably are inclined to take the lessons coming out of China to heart more than the other NATO partners, seem like good candidates for the construction of prototypes. Either way, though, I agree that there will not be a type standardized assault gun for the US Army. I cant promise that the USMC wont see the value of a light, compact large caliber gun platform for direct support of the infantry. Of course, in 1996 they might still be using the M60 A3/4.

*laughs* Exactly, the M3 75mm gun was designed not to deliver a round capable of armour penetration, but direct fire HE - in fact the M3 is the ultimate French 75 of fame and legend, since it is a direct descendant of it.

As to the Germans, it totally agree. Seeing the shape of things on China, I could see them placing plans in the files for how to convert equipment to assault guns, maybe even stockpiling certain parts that would be needed for such. I could very much see them building prototypes based on the Leo 1, as well as the M113 - as well as rearming or upgrading the Jaguar itself (Already in service as a missile armed upgrade of the original post war StuG)

[StainlessSteelCynic]

As to the Germans, it totally agree. Seeing the shape of things on China, I could see them placing plans in the files for how to convert equipment to assault guns, maybe even stockpiling certain parts that would be needed for such. I could very much see them building prototypes based on the Leo 1...

Something like this



More images here but the text is all in German

http://www.panzerbaer.de/types/bw_kpz_3_gvt-a.htm

And another development on the same theme can be found here but it's from the same website so again the text is in German

http://www.panzerbaer.de/types/bw_kpz_3_gvt-b.htm

[Legbreaker]

I can't imagine it would be much fun being the driver if both barrels fired at once!
Looks very wide. Bridges and tunnels would have been a bitch to deal with, although strangely, finding a parking spot at the supermarket not so much...

[pmulcahy11b]

Something like this

I think Antenna has that one statted out on his site.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I think Antenna has that one statted out on his site.

I vaguely recalled that he did after reading your post so I went looking. He has a related vehicle that I think was part of the project that spawned the vehicle that I posted. The vehicle he's statted suffers some self-esteem problems though - from having only one main gun!

Here's his page: -

http://www.ludd.luth.se/~antenna/m2k/veh/nato-td/koningsjaguar.htm

[HorseSoldier]

On the M113 based Sturmhaubitzer, I wonder if it wouldn't find a niche in the T2K world that it obviously didn't find in real life -- namely, a fairly cheap fire support vehicle specifically for West German reserve formations. Those guys had a pretty significant rear-area security mission against Soviet/WP airborne and airmobile units, and a 105mm howitzer would be ideal for anti-infantry work in that capacity and capable of anti-armor work against the BMDs and other light armor the Soviet desant units could bring to the fight.

(Any unit equipped with them would have to rely on someone else to do anti-tank work if they ended up face to face with a frontline breakthrough and T-72s or similar, but maybe units equipped with the 113 howitzer also had a 113 based version of the Jaguar 1/2 vehicles, or just limited German adoption of the M901 ITV as a complement to the gun armed vehicle.)

[Webstral]

On the M113 based Sturmhaubitzer, I wonder if it wouldn't find a niche in the T2K world that it obviously didn't find in real life -- namely, a fairly cheap fire support vehicle specifically for West German reserve formations. Those guys had a pretty significant rear-area security mission against Soviet/WP airborne and airmobile units, and a 105mm howitzer would be ideal for anti-infantry work in that capacity and capable of anti-armor work against the BMDs and other light armor the Soviet desant units could bring to the fight.

An exceptionally fine idea.

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

You do not need the 105 for close support the 90 would be sufficient for that.



M113 with Cockerill Mk III 90-mm gun I would think would be an excellent option. Heck even the Australian MRV http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pu...13-MRV-1-1.jpg would also work.

[Legbreaker]

Heck even the Australian MRV http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pu...13-MRV-1-1.jpg would also work.

It does, and has. The Australian M113 with Saladin turrets were used to good effect in Vietnam.

[HorseSoldier]

Would definitely get the job done as well, though without the war-fuzzy Teutonic feel of a turretless assault gun (Though a short barrel 105mm howitzer might provide indirect fire options other systems did not.)

[Panther Al]

Would definitely get the job done as well, though without the war-fuzzy Teutonic feel of a turretless assault gun (Though a short barrel 105mm howitzer might provide indirect fire options other systems did not.)

But I like StuG's! Nothing says loving like a tank shorter than you, with a shell larger than a script kiddies ego!


Though, the idea of using a D30 instead of a 105 does make one go hrmm... After all, the D30 is a proven performer that does have a much heavier throw weight for not much more cost in size and weight over a 105. There is a reason why the Germans was talking about switching to a 12.8cm howitzer from the 10.5cm/15cm combo during WW2: The increase in terminal performance vastly outweighed the penalties of a slightly larger (or smaller in the case of the 15cm) gun.

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

The only problem I see with that particular Stug113 is that the gun looks like it has no traverse what so ever. It would suck as an anti vehicle stug. having to make even minor adjustments by having the driver twist left and right would be down right daunting.