Semi-OT:Ammo load

[copeab]

I'm aware that in T2K, the answer to "How much ammo dies a soldier carry" is "How much can he find"

I'm running a Weird WWII campaign where the PCs are members of an OSS team, so these are not line infantry (their missions are more akin to special ops raids or patrols).

Two of the players have a fairly good grasp of ammo loads. Two, however, either try to carry too little or too much. So I was thinking of coming up with guidelines such as:

For a "standard" mission, figure 100 rounds per automatic weapon, 50 rounds per semiautomatic weapon and three magazines per pistol. 2-3 grenades (fragmentation, concussion, smoke) may also be carried.

For a 'long term' mission, double those numbers.

FWIW. weapons commonly used by the team include the BAR, silenced Sten (normally only fired semiauto to preserve the silencer), M-1 Garand, M-1 carbine and Atlantean "AK-47"*. Three PCs carry Browning HPs and one a custom Colt M-1911A1. One of those (the ex-mafia hitman) with a Browning also carries a silenced Mosin-nagant revolver for "special occasions". At times they have had a flamethrower or light mortar. It's a rare mission where they don't carry at least one satchel charge

Common longarms are one BAR, two Garands and one M-1 carbine (the Shinto priest usually doesn't carry anything heavier than the carbine).

Does this sound like too much or too little ammo for troops who aren't expected to engage in "normal" combat

* This ws a failed attempt by the Atlanteans to provide the Allies with an automatic weapon that quickly and easily built by the Allies. However it was rejected as being too crude, inaccurate and underpowered (compared tot he Garand and Lee-Enfield). To simplify ammo supply (and further damn the weapon to the military), it used the .30-30 round (which is actually a bit more powerful than the 7.62x39mm). About half were kept by the OSS and Marines, while the rest were covertly dumped on the defeated Russians ...

[dragoon500ly]

Well, IRL the BAR Gunner's belt had six pouches, each holding two 20-round mags, the asst BAR gunner would carry a bandoleer with six additional 20-round mags.

The cartridge belt would hold ten 8-round clips for his M-1, normal issue was for two bandoleers, each holding six t-round clips.

Pistol would be issued with three 7-round magazines.

Carbines would be issued three 15-round magazines (and 90 loose rounds)

SMGs would be issued three ways; early thompson would be two five-mag pouches, each holding a 20-round magazine; late thompson would be two three-mag pouches, each holding a 30-round magazine (Rangers, paratroopers, Marine Raiders would get one or two 50-rounds drums but this would be 1942-43 only). Late war M-3 would either get the same two three-mag pouches, each holding a 30-round magazine or a ammo pouch that held all six 30-round magazines. It would not be unusual for a SMG user to have a box or two of .45 to top off magazines (50-100 rounds).

If you kick it and issue a M-1919A6, then the three man crew would carry three 250-round belts and each member of the squad would carry another can with a 250-round belt. Not only was this used with the MG, but rounds could be stripped from the belts and M-1 clips reloaded.

[copeab]

Well, IRL the BAR Gunner's belt had six pouches, each holding two 20-round mags, the asst BAR gunner would carry a bandoleer with six additional 20-round mags.

As there are only four PCs and usually no more than two NPCs (one of which carries a field radio and the second it the mechanic/copilot of their plane), there is normally no assistant BAR gunner, although the carbine-carrying priest could carry extra ammo for it if he's not carrying explosives (I think he has the best Demolitions in the group).

Pistol would be issued with three 7-round magazines.

I might make it four mags for the guys with Brownings, as each has one mag of silver bullets which would be wasted on most targets.

Carbines would be issued three 15-round magazines (and 90 loose rounds)

The loose ammo would probably be in magazines in this case.

If you kick it and issue a M-1919A6, then the three man crew would carry three 250-round belts and each member of the squad would carry another can with a 250-round belt. Not only was this used with the MG, but rounds could be stripped from the belts and M-1 clips reloaded.

Unless the team gets additional troops assigned to them as "security" they are not likely to have a tripod-mounted weapon. The mortar they had was the Italian 45mm Brixia, which could be carried (35 lbs) and operated by one man, and they abandoned it when they had to make a hasty getaway once. They are looking to replace it with the 60mm M-19 mortar (22 lbs with sling and baseplate).

They do have a bit of an armory, which they keep in their Grumman goose most of the time.

[Mahatatain]

One guide I always found interesting comes from an old RPG set in Vietnam called "The Revised Recon" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recon_%...laying_game%29

In that (on pages 45 & 46 if you get hold of a copy) they give an example of the gear carried by a new arrival in Vietnam and what he's carrying six months later. It's an RPG so I've no idea of the level of accuracy but he goes from carrying 4 spare mags for his M16 to carrying 16 (and ditching a lot of other crap as well).

I think however that the key question for your game, and the amount of ammo the characters are carrying around, is how frequently they think that they're going to be resupplied If they're not going to be in action for very long and can expect an extraction fairly quickly then they don't need to carry as much ammo. If they know that they're going to be on the ground with multiple firefights then they know they need to carry more.

However as a GM I'd give them some advice and then let them decide and see what happens, quite possibly putting them in longer range firefights that use up more ammo, particularly if there was a PC not carrying enough ammo and I wanted to make a point. Obviously should anyone start running short of ammo there is always the option of switching to a captured weapon.

[dragoon500ly]

As there are only four PCs and usually no more than two NPCs (one of which carries a field radio and the second it the mechanic/copilot of their plane), there is normally no assistant BAR gunner, although the carbine-carrying priest could carry extra ammo for it if he's not carrying explosives (I think he has the best Demolitions in the group).

I included the BAR bandoleer as an easy means of providing six extra mags. A US Squad would often have 3-4 men carrying this.

The loose ammo would probably be in magazines in this case

Evil grin....the M-1 Carbine was only issued with 3 mags....even paratroopers and Rangers....

Unless the team gets additional troops assigned to them as "security" they are not likely to have a tripod-mounted weapon. The mortar they had was the Italian 45mm Brixia, which could be carried (35 lbs) and operated by one man, and they abandoned it when they had to make a hasty getaway once. They are looking to replace it with the 60mm M-19 mortar (22 lbs with sling and baseplate).

The M1919A6 was the 1944/45 US entry into the light machine gun contest. It really was a M-1919A4 (the tripod-mounted version), fitted with a fixed bipod, a carrying handle, a buttstock and a modified trigger/firing grip. It could be operated by one person, but was better used with a loader.

[Legbreaker]

In more recent times an L1A1 SLR was issued as a base load three 20 round mags. An M16 ten 20 round mags and M60 600 rounds of link. That's just base load... If combat was expected then ammo would be however much can be carried.

[Mahatatain]

In more recent times an L1A1 SLR was issued as a base load three 20 round mags.

Which army was that in It seems scarily low!

[mcchordsage]

Recon's not far off (Wow, someone else out there who knows what that is), I have a series of books about LRRP/Ranger units in Vietnam (sort of like the type of OSS operations being discussed) and most of the chapters have pretty could descriptions of the gear men took into the field. Unsurprisingly, your average soldier is carrying a lot more ammunition (and water) then 'issue'. Sixteen mags for an M-16 sounds about right, but I could look up a few real life examples.

In more recent times an L1A1 SLR was issued as a base load three 20 round mags.

That can't be, two SLR magazine pouches with a capacity of two magazines were issued standard with web gear (like the US Army's M-16 pouches).

[Legbreaker]

Australian. Mind you that's 1st line ammo and if combat was expected then you got two, three, five times as much.
However, as has been posted in another thread a few weeks ago (which one escapes me at the moment) one of the greatest Australian battles started off with nothing more than 1st line ammo - Battle of Long Tan in Vietnam.

Back when I did my initial infantry training we had an average of 11 blanks per SLR to last us a week - cutbacks....
The M60s had about 200 rounds and there wasn't a single M16 in sight.

There was lots of screaming "BANG".

With regard to the pouches, yes, we had two of them, but the second was used for grenades or other items. Great place to keep your chocolate handy.

[Mahatatain]

Back when I did my initial infantry training we had an average of 11 blanks per SLR to last us a week - cutbacks....
The M60s had about 200 rounds and there wasn't a single M16 in sight.

There was lots of screaming "BANG".

With regard to the pouches, yes, we had two of them, but the second was used for grenades or other items. Great place to keep your chocolate handy.

That's mad! 11 blanks each per week! I swear that I fired more than that as an Army Cadet! <G>

When were these cutbacks I thought that you were in the Australian Army in the early 90's and I didn't realise that there were cutbacks going on then!

[dragoon500ly]

Cutbacks happen all the time, regardless of the branch of the military. I remember in 1979 going on company (armor)-level maneuvers...dismounted due to having used up our fuel allotment for the month.

[Mahatatain]

Cutbacks happen all the time, regardless of the branch of the military. I remember in 1979 going on company (armor)-level maneuvers...dismounted due to having used up our fuel allotment for the month.

LOL!

[Raellus]

Cutbacks happen all the time, regardless of the branch of the military. I remember in 1979 going on company (armor)-level maneuvers...dismounted due to having used up our fuel allotment for the month.

Sounds like a T2K moment.

[dragoon500ly]

Worked in the end, we got to...err...overwatch a nudist colony for the afternoon!

[weswood]

Cutbacks happen all the time, regardless of the branch of the military. I remember in 1979 going on company (armor)-level maneuvers...dismounted due to having used up our fuel allotment for the month.

I just had a flashback...back in the early 80's a bunch of drink friends (plus me) were messing with the drive through clerk @ Whitecastle in Columbus Ga. We went throught the drive through, in the car, then we went through in the car in reverse, then we parked the car and mimed being in the car.

I can just picture you walking in formation where you'd be sitting in your vehicles.