Firebases in T2K

[Raellus]

I was looking at a book on U.S. firebases in Vietnam at the bookstore and I got to thinking. It seems like with the fluid front lines and cantonment systems of the Twilight world, that firebases would make a bit of a comeback.

What do you think

[Matt Wiser]

After TDM, you bet it would. King's Ransom has one (not developed, but mentioned) outside Lordegan as Firebase Montgomery (2x 105-mm and 2x 155-mm towed howitzers). I'd bet the firebase concept is very common in Europe, Iran, and Korea. Maybe here in CONUS if you're one of those who includes the Mexican Invasion in your setting as well.

[Targan]

In my current campaign Major Po's unit has a Vietnam War type SF firebase attached to the 78th Division's main cantonment in New Jersey. We have quite detailed plans of its layout.

[chico20854]

My mental image of the front line along the Oder on the Polish-German border by 2000 is a series of Vietnam-style firebases, heavy on machineguns, autocannons and dug-in partly operable tanks and AFVs providing overwatch to agricultural areas. In 2000, arable land is too precious to tie up with trenches, barbed wire and minefields, the first two of which can be defeated by operating AFVs. (Of course there would be a protective shell of barbed wire, minefields and obstacles, but it wouldn't have a lot of depth due to the need to farm every available inch).

[Adm.Lee]

By "firebase," shouldn't you mean a post built around artillery That can project some firepower to support patrols. And yes, I think cantonments ought to center around some of these.

[jester]

But also, what can we call fire power

I would say a mortar would be an awsome defensive position to project the power and defenses of the base/village.

Remember, a mortar fires from behind obstacles, it is not a line of sight weapon, and it can fire in 360 degrees pretty easily really.

Imagine digging up the town square and installing one, two or three 120mm mortars in the square, they can fire for several kilometers in any direction, so, with spotters and good observation points you would be able to rain down a world of hurt on any wouldbe attacker before he gets close. Of course the skill of your crew, the FDC and the ammo supply are signifigant factors of course.

But, also, it could be done with heavy machineguns as well, firing them in the indirect fire mode, again it could be done with spotters and used to walk rounds right in on a badguy in the defilade. Of course this would work well with a antiair system with multiple guns.

[Targan]

Remember, a mortar fires from behind obstacles, it is not a line of sight weapon, and it can fire in 360 degrees pretty easily really.

Mortars can used as line of sight weapons depending on the mortar. Several posters on the old forums mentioned that they had been trained to used 60mm mortars in direct fire applications, and the Vasilek Automortar is designed to be fired in a direct fire role as well.

[jester]

Mortars can used as line of sight weapons depending on the mortar. Several posters on the old forums mentioned that they had been trained to used 60mm mortars in direct fire applications, and the Vasilek Automortar is designed to be fired in a direct fire role as well.

Yes I was one of those posters who said it, it can be done, but normaly they are not, which makes them cool, poor mans artillery. You can be behind 1 think, your target behind another and you can still blast them. As for line of sight, let me rephrase it, most are not a DIRECT FIRE weapon, the vasilaek being the exception.

[Targan]

Sorry Jest, I know you know what you're talking about (especially with mortars as I was never actually trained to use them). I was really only being pedantic for newcomers to our group and for people who have no military experience.

I learn something new every week reading posts on this forum and the old one.

[Mohoender]

I like your idea about firebases but I think they have a weakness if I'm correct. If facing a fairly strong force they can be isolated and easily wiped out. That's what happened to the French at Dien Bien Fu. They were using firebases but as they had insufficient transport to evacuate or move around, they had to surrender.

U.S. better air power made them much more efficient in Vietnam. General Wingate's experience with the Chindits is also very interesting. I think he is the guy who thought of them in the first place.

[Adm.Lee]

I like your idea about firebases but I think they have a weakness if I'm correct. If facing a fairly strong force they can be isolated and easily wiped out. That's what happened to the French at Dien Bien Fu. They were using firebases but as they had insufficient transport to evacuate or move around, they had to surrender.

DBP was one (really big) firebase, too far from any others for mutual support. It was also at a terrain disadvantage, which further isolated it.

[jester]

Firebases:

I think it would get Fuedal real quick.

Place your village on highgrounds with sharpened stakes and berms as defenses, if it were me, I would flood the fields immediatly around the village and use them to grow rice or a combination of crayfish or carp as well.

One thing to consider, you could probably only control the area for wich your weapons have effective range.

Imagine the PCs strolling down the road and they see a circular pattern of cultivated land extended about 1200m from the village on the hill, but it stops suddenly.

As for Dien bien Phu;

Was it DeCastris or the general in charge of Indo China who made the same boast that Goering did with Stalingrad. They promised delivery of supplies they couldn't manage.

Plus, the fortifications were not completed EVER.

It was a series of Fire Bases ringing the valley, the main base and airstrip were on the valley floor and a poorly selected area really. It flooded to knee deep water in the monsoon season. And they placed outposts or firebases that ranged from Company to Battallion sized elements, the only problem was the rain, the problem getting building material in to fortifiy the place, basic supplises, the weather. And, they had mountains overlooking the base which allowed for plunging fire and fire that gunners could visualy observe their rounds. Further, it forced the pilots for landing and extraction as well as for parachute resupply to run a guantlet of anti air fire at eye level and sometimes even firing down on the planes as they circled to either land or drop their parachutes within the ever shrinkin perimeter.

Weather, flooding of the fortifications, this also grounded aircraft and lessened the effectiveness of fire from airsupport and artillery rounds.

Artillery: Viet Minhn could see the effectiveness of their fire and adjust if it wasn't. The French Union forces could not.

And of course a good number of colonial French Union Forces also defected and deserted as well.

And of course the lack of supply and propper shelter also had a great effect on the outcome.

I was planning on a campaign around Dien Bien Phu a couple years ago, I even got a few character ideas submitted. Its tempting to get it going again.

[ChalkLine]

Dien Bien Phu;

Also, as Jester has said, De Castres didn't think the Viet Minh could bring up heavy artillery, and the entire site was based around this premise.

However, at an unknown human cost, Giap man packed soviet 122mm howitzers through the forest to bombard the base. The French 105mm howitzers, a good gun but designed to be the upper limit of air-mobility, couldn't answer to the range or weight of shell and the Viet Minh counter-battery fire destroyed the base.

De Castres and the French command made several major mistakes that PCs could use to reduce other firebases, I'll summarise everyone's points here for a list;

• Inability of supply
• Vantage points outside the reach of the base's weapons
• Under estimation of the enemy
• Base too large to defend
• Base that once the perimeter is penetrated has no fall back line
• Lack of aggressive patrolling
• Lack of a rapid reaction force
• Inability to move reserves across base to recapture strong points

Of course, making these things happen is better than just hoping they're there. Giap constrained movement with his guns. Supply can be cut of and attacks made on siege caches. The opponent can be invited to underestimate the threat and to expand to deny points that thins his troops.

Vietnam really suffered due to the armoured enclave mentality. It is estimated that 80% of the troops in theatre were need to man and secure the bases, leaving very little for combat tasks. This underlies the absolute necessity in securing the zone so troops can move about.

This is the real fight I see occurring in T2k. If an area has insufficient troops to man a continuous trench line, and many places will (I see trenches mainly happening on the Oder and Rhine lines in a v1 campaign) there will be isolated strong points surrounded by an artillery zone. In the no-man's land between artillery zones the troops fight each other, trying to secure choke points, attack movement and deny resources.

Attacks on cantons will be spoiling in nature. Crops can be attacked with chemical weapons which damage the ground and make the food inedible. Patrols will be ambushed and then the attackers withdraw before the base fire can be directed onto them. Harassing fire from mobile weapons such as mortars, SPGs and technicals can be directed onto bases and then moved before retaliation to keep base defenders on edge and tired. Some of these attacks may be sufficient to get some cantons to just move somewhere quieter.

[Mohoender]

Definitely agree. You have gone into depth with this .

[headquarters]

Agreed

Firebases:

I think it would get Fuedal real quick.

Place your village on highgrounds with sharpened stakes and berms as defenses, if it were me, I would flood the fields immediatly around the village and use them to grow rice or a combination of crayfish or carp as well.

One thing to consider, you could probably only control the area for wich your weapons have effective range.

Imagine the PCs strolling down the road and they see a circular pattern of cultivated land extended about 1200m from the village on the hill, but it stops suddenly.

As for Dien bien Phu;

Was it DeCastris or the general in charge of Indo China who made the same boast that Goering did with Stalingrad. They promised delivery of supplies they couldn't manage.

Plus, the fortifications were not completed EVER.

It was a series of Fire Bases ringing the valley, the main base and airstrip were on the valley floor and a poorly selected area really. It flooded to knee deep water in the monsoon season. And they placed outposts or firebases that ranged from Company to Battallion sized elements, the only problem was the rain, the problem getting building material in to fortifiy the place, basic supplises, the weather. And, they had mountains overlooking the base which allowed for plunging fire and fire that gunners could visualy observe their rounds. Further, it forced the pilots for landing and extraction as well as for parachute resupply to run a guantlet of anti air fire at eye level and sometimes even firing down on the planes as they circled to either land or drop their parachutes within the ever shrinkin perimeter.

Weather, flooding of the fortifications, this also grounded aircraft and lessened the effectiveness of fire from airsupport and artillery rounds.

Artillery: Viet Minhn could see the effectiveness of their fire and adjust if it wasn't. The French Union forces could not.

And of course a good number of colonial French Union Forces also defected and deserted as well.

And of course the lack of supply and propper shelter also had a great effect on the outcome.

I was planning on a campaign around Dien Bien Phu a couple years ago, I even got a few character ideas submitted. Its tempting to get it going again.

I think the breakdown of law and command and the increase in importance of holding areas for farmland and food/fuel/goods etc would mean a shift towards neo-feudalism ( catchy ,ey) .

Of course having command would run in families/within groups of friends etc -now that trust is the only thing holding units together.

Our campaign rely on this thesis as far asdescribing the socioploitical enviroment in most places . (Not all though )