Composition of TF34

[Rainbow Six]

Something else to keep in mind is just because ships are available, doesn't mean they'll be allowed to be used by their owners. What about all the other nations involved and how are they going to feel about the US grabbing every last bathtub able to float across the Atlantic Image how Britain for example would react to seeing "their" ships being rounded up by the remnants of the US navy and sailing off into the sunset!

That's a good point. I presume the Germans must have signed off on the idea of some of their remaining merchant fleet going on what was a one way journey to the US (it was stated that the oil would burn out the ships' engines wasn't it) as part of the deal.

However it also supports the theory that if there are any US ships sitting tied up at Bremerhaven after bringing over reinforcements in 1999 they would be incorporated into TF34.

[Canadian Army]

Just to keep the debate going here are some ship that could be used:

USS Oriskany (CV/CVA-34), an Essex-class aircraft carrier.

NS Savannah, the first nuclear-powered cargo-passenger ship.

USTS Empire State V, Training ship for the State University of New York Maritime College until 1990.

USS Sequoia, the former United States presidential yacht.

MS Pacific Princess, a cruise ship owned and operated by Princess Cruises.

USS Range Sentinel (AGM-22), a missile range instrumentation ship.

SS John W. Brown, one of two still operational Liberty ships.

USCGC Eagle (WIX-327), a barque used as a training cutter for the United States Coast Guard.

Delaware II, a fishery and marine resource research ship of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.

RV Laurence M. Gould, an icebreaker used by researchers from the United States' National Science Foundation.

USS Sanctuary (AH-17), a Haven-class hospital ship that served in the U.S. Navy in World War II and the Vietnam War.

SS Wild Goose; John Wayne's former yacht

USS Potomac (AG-25), formerly the USCGC Electra, Franklin Delano Roosevelts presidential yacht from 1936 until his death in 1945.

USS Joseph P. Kennedy, Jr. (DD-850); a Gearing-class destroyer of the United States Navy.

USS Salem (CA-139); a Des Moines-class heavy cruiser of the United States Navy.

[simonmark6]

The Eagle is mentioned in the Challenger articles, but actually it's based in Nantucket back in the Bronze Ages.

I hadn't thought about the last replacements to come from the US, it was a few Light Divisions that could feasibly have been brought over on a couple or three Cruise Ships. They might well have been stranded in Europe if fuel was low, it's a good idea.

[Cdnwolf]

From Gateway to the Spanish Main.... maybe the USS Constitution was to be part of the taskforce but something delayed her...

From Western Europe (Going Home): The players just missed
Task Force 34 and found themselves on a bleak North Sea beach
on the morning of November 16, 2000, when an antique sailing
ship emerged from the fog and dropped anchor off shore.
It may not be the QEII, but the characters were a day late and
a dollar short, and it is sailing in the right direction.

[Canadian Army]

The Eagle is mentioned in the Challenger articles, but actually it's based in Nantucket back in the Bronze Ages.

I read the Nantucket series too.

[Legbreaker]

I just had a thought on the whole TF34 thing.
Why would the Germans give up all that oil before the US troops were loaded up and all that lovely heavy equipment and supplies handed over
Sure they might give the US a trickle of fuel so they can carry out vital logistic tasks such as gather the ships together and generate the necessary power, but I'm sure as hell they won't be allowing the ships to fuel up more than a thimbleful any sooner than they absolutely had to.

If the fuel was released earlier, what's to stop the US from simply reneging on their deal and loading up as much as they can squeeze into their ships and sailing off into the sunset

[atiff]

I just had a thought on the whole TF34 thing.
Why would the Germans give up all that oil before the US troops were loaded up and all that lovely heavy equipment and supplies handed over
Sure they might give the US a trickle of fuel so they can carry out vital logistic tasks such as gather the ships together and generate the necessary power, but I'm sure as hell they won't be allowing the ships to fuel up more than a thimbleful any sooner than they absolutely had to.

If the fuel was released earlier, what's to stop the US from simply reneging on their deal and loading up as much as they can squeeze into their ships and sailing off into the sunset

Then again, as the Germans, why would you turn over the fuel after the Americans have given you all their gear and put themselves into a nice, tight, easy-to-Fireball group

Oh, sorry, wrong game

[Legbreaker]

50,000 US servicemen, even with only personal weapons and stiffened with Military Police AFVs are still likely to be a little more than a speed bump to the Germans if they decide on a double cross....

On the other hand, one nuke should just about do the job.

It may be that fuel is handed over in stages. For every "X" tonnes of military vehicles and stores, the Germans hand over "Y" tonnes of oil.

The main point is that there is no way if I were the German command that I'd be simply handing over the oil tanker and hoping the Americans keep their word. May be allies, but it's several years after global nuclear holocaust and my so called allies are (from some points of view) deserting the cause like rats off a sinking ship.

[Webstral]

Well, there's this whole thing about alliances, fighting together under the nuclear shadow, etc. Maybe there just comes a point at which being a blue falcon doesn't make as much sense as carrying through on a deal. The Germans did start WW3, and the US did back them up, and the US did play the nuclear game when at any point the Americans could have decided that they could have taken their ball and gone home. Maybe the Germans who are still in command are the kinds of folks to whom that sort of thing means more than a tanker full of unrefined oil.

[Legbreaker]

You're probably right, but the tanker is still an amazingly valuable resource. The Germans might not be looking to do a double cross, but on the other hand, from their perspective, what's to stop the Americans if the fuel was handed over too early
It's not like the Americans have to live with the consequences - they're about to sail halfway around the world and will probably have nothing further to do with Europe for a generation or two.

Meanwhile of course there's those US units staying behind, but the assumption in the planning stages had to always be the US were aiming for a 100% withdrawal.

[Webstral]

You're probably right, but the tanker is still an amazingly valuable resource. The Germans might not be looking to do a double cross, but on the other hand, from their perspective, what's to stop the Americans if the fuel was handed over too early

Lack of space becomes the German guarantee that the Americans will leave their heavy gear. A comparison between the shipping carrying the Americans to Virginia and the requirements for heavy gear should satisfy the Germans that the tanks, guns, and other heavy equipment will stay in Germany.

[Legbreaker]

Even so, it's just plain bad practise to hand over payment prior to receiving the goods.
As an example, if you were buying a new luxury car, would you really hand over every last dollar weeks before even laying eyes on it No, you'd probably only go as far as laying down a deposit and hand over the rest of the cash when you got the keys.
The same logic applies to the oil and the German shipping (page three again - NO mention of US ships involved besides the USS John Hancock). The Germans aren't stupid. They're sure to retain absolute control of the resources involved until they've got what they're paying for.

One other point is that until the last week or so, nobody is likely to know just how many people will be boarding the ships, and it's also likely that involvement of a few ships remains uncertain (ongoing repairs, etc). With that uncertainty, the Americans could manage to slip in half a dozen tanks, a truckload of electronics, ten tonnes of valuable medical supplies and so forth - the Germans would be doing everything in their power to prevent that.

My belief as previously indicated is the Germans would only part with a minimal amount of oil necessary for getting the ships to the point of ready for departure. An inspection would then be carried out by Germans and the ship would be allowed to move to the fuel point to fill it's tanks. This may well mean the passengers are cooped up aboard ship another couple of days, but at least they've got a roof over their heads, food supplied, nobody shooting at them, and they're on the way home.

[Webstral]

Fine. So the Germans take some steps to make sure they get what was promised. Maybe they even have a few of their own people at the docks to watch what goes on the ships. Maybe the stevedores are all German nationals reporting to the Army. One does not roll a tank up the gangplank of a passenger ship, after all. I dont really see what the big deal is.

[Rainbow Six]

Crews

Something has just occurred to me.

I don't have a copy of Going Home immediately to had, so am going from memory, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, however isn't it kinda assumed that that this was a one way trip

If that is the case and we agree that with the exeption of the USS John Hancock the majority (if not all) of the TF34 Fleet is made up of German merchant ships, I'm thinking there might be a problem finding crews for these ships How many German sailors are going to be happy to sign up for a one way ticket to North America Or do we assume that there are enough US and Canadian sailors stuck in Germany to form skeleton crews Or are we back with the theory that TF34 includes a number of US ships that have been stuck in Bremerhaven since the reinforcements arrived in 1999

just a passing thought...

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Something has just occurred to me.

I don't have a copy of Going Home immediately to had, so am going from memory, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, however isn't it kinda assumed that that this was a one way trip

If that is the case and we agree that with the exeption of the USS John Hancock the majority (if not all) of the TF34 Fleet is made up of German merchant ships, I'm thinking there might be a problem finding crews for these ships How many German sailors are going to be happy to sign up for a one way ticket to North America Or do we assume that there are enough US and Canadian sailors stuck in Germany to form skeleton crews Or are we back with the theory that TF34 includes a number of US ships that have been stuck in Bremerhaven since the reinforcements arrived in 1999

just a passing thought...

Some German merchant sailors may be completely dispossessed: home was nuked out of existence, so a one-way trip to America where things maybe aren't so bad (relatively) might be more appealing than staying home.

Could be that there's a lot of sailors who've been shore security for a few years itching to get back in water even if it's one last time. I'm sure that there's probably a few fleet officers that feel that way.

Failing any of that, John Hancock could have brought over a compliment of US sailors from the 'States just for the operation. I think a few hundred would do the job nicely (if that many - I'm not up on how big cargo ships operate). This assumes Hancock had to come from the US. If it came from the UK there might have been a transferral of US Navy personnel from there; this is their shot at going home too...