Twilight 2013 Weapon Stats

[Medic]

I can't argue with any of those numbers. The extra features are nice, but the core system is still an AK.

- C.

Very true, Clayton, though there's a number of improvements, especially in the m/95 - an improved charging handle, an improved safety switch which makes operating it a bit easier even if you don't have very long fingers, a selector switch for the gas blowback system to allow firing of rifle grenades and so on. The ability to fire rifle grenades is not used, though, since the Army bought a pile of HK69A1 grenade launchers (designated as 40 KRPIST 2002). And I must add, the 5.56mm round would not do in the Finnish terrain - too much underbrush, trees and leaves hanging in the way. The 7.62mm round, being heavier, fares much better.

All the Finnish designations for weapons follow the particular formula Caliber Abbreviation Year (Special Property), so the correct designation for the m/95 would be, of course 7.62 RK 95TP, which means 7.62mm Assault Rifle (rynn$kkkiv$$ri in Finnish) 95 Folding Stock (taittoper$ in Finnish). The earlier version of the assault rifle would be 7.62 RK 62 or 76, depending on from which batch it came from. Even the artillery pieces are designated like that - for an example the Vammas 155mm field gun from 1998 is 155 K 98 (K stands for kanuuna=cannon).

[Tegyrius]

Very true, Clayton, though there's a number of improvements, especially in the m/95 - an improved charging handle, an improved safety switch which makes operating it a bit easier even if you don't have very long fingers, a selector switch for the gas blowback system to allow firing of rifle grenades and so on.

Oh, I agree. I've seen a number of articles and books cite the Finnish rifles as the ultimate evolution of the AK. But in terms of a stat block, none of those refinements affect the basic ballistics, speed, and handling. Ergonomics tend not to be reflected in Reflex equipment modeling (bullpup layout being an exception because it is such a fundamental shift in balance and overall length).

All the Finnish designations for weapons follow the particular formula Caliber Abbreviation Year (Special Property), so the correct designation for the m/95 would be, of course 7.62 RK 95TP, which means 7.62mm Assault Rifle (rynn$kkkiv$$ri in Finnish) 95 Folding Stock (taittoper$ in Finnish). The earlier version of the assault rifle would be 7.62 RK 62 or 76, depending on from which batch it came from. Even the artillery pieces are designated like that - for an example the Vammas 155mm field gun from 1998 is 155 K 98 (K stands for kanuuna=cannon).

I like consistent systems. How much of the full designation is used in normal conversation Is "m/95" typical, with just the year of adoption being stated

- C.

[Medic]

Oh, I agree. I've seen a number of articles and books cite the Finnish rifles as the ultimate evolution of the AK. But in terms of a stat block, none of those refinements affect the basic ballistics, speed, and handling. Ergonomics tend not to be reflected in Reflex equipment modeling (bullpup layout being an exception because it is such a fundamental shift in balance and overall length).

Yes, that is quite right. A number of foreigners I know, who have had the chance to try the Finnish rifles have been astonished because as far as I've understood, even though AK is a very good weapon, it did have a lousy reputation in the west during the cold war - at least among those who have not actually encountered it in person. There was a test batch of M/82 assault rifles that were built bullpup, but they were not very efficient and never got in to full fledged production. They had been planned for the paratroopers, but caused a number of facial and dental injuries upon test jumps and the sights were lousy. To avoid having the sights very high above the actual weapon, the sights were on the left side of the rifle, which made it practically impossible for a left-handed user to fire and very difficult to adjust.

I like consistent systems. How much of the full designation is used in normal conversation Is "m/95" typical, with just the year of adoption being stated

When talking about assault rifles, if you ask a Finnish soldier, they call it RK, which is short for rynn$kkkiv$$ri. If they want to distinguish different models of the RK, they'll say RK62 or RK95 - there is the RK76, but it's practically just a bit differently manufactured M/62, so people use the 62.

In general, all the gear in Finnish Defence Forces has the year of adoption planted in the name for logistics. For an example, I have both M/95 and M/05 field uniforms in my closet. The M stands for malli (= model). If everyone knows what piece of equipment you are talking about, then you can just drop the prefix and use the year.

Of course, some of the equipment isn't listed like that - for an example the old radio transreciever, designated in Finland as LV217 (it's actually the U.S. AN/PRC-77 built by Nokia in Finland under a license) is L$hetinvastaanotin (=transreciever) model 217 (and don't ask me where the 217 came from). It's lovingly called 'venttiseiska' (= Blackjack Seven) by it's (overburdened) users, in which I actually counted myself when I was in conscript service. There was already a model of it by then, the 217M, modernized by Nokia - the 217M is also being phased out already in favour of digital radios. Also, mounting a 6/30W booster on it turns it in to a brigade-level radio, LV317 or 317M.

[Mahatatain]

FN Mk. 48 (Squad Automatic Weapon)

Caliber: 7.62x51mm
Capacity: belt
Damage: 8
Penetration: x2/x3
Stage III Ballistics: 7.62x51mm
Range: Medium/Sniping
ROF: B5/B9 for Mod 0; B5/B10 for Mod 1
Speed: 4/6/9
Recoil: 6
Bulk: 4
Weight: 8.4 kg for Mod 0; 8.3 kg for Mod 1
Barter Value: GG2,800
Street Price: $11,200

(I'm classifying the Mk. 48 as a SAW rather than a GPMG because it seems to be treated as a SAW in deployment and doctrine. Really, I'm rethinking the whole SAW/GPMG game classification based on some conversations elsenet, but that's neither here nor there.)

Thanks for this - most appreciated.

Two further questions for you (hopefully you don't mind me picking your brain with this). Firstly am I right in thinking that in terms of game mechanics the HK-416 is the same as the M4A1

Secondly do the following set of stats for the Zastava M21 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zastava_M21) sound right:

Zastava M21

Calibre: 5.56x45mm
Capacity: 30
Damage: 6
Penetration: x2/x3
Range: Medium/Sniping
ROF: S/B5
Speed: 3/5/7
Recoil: 4
Bulk: 3
Weight: 3.85kg

Thanks for your help with this.

[pmulcahy11b]

I wold love to have Excel spreadsheets for weapon and vehicle creation in T2K13. Someone made some for me for use with T2K 2.2. My personal Excel-Fu in nonexistent, and I can't even fix or add to the spreadsheets I have except by organized fudging. Anyone out there with high Excel-fu belts able to help me out

[ArmySGT.]

I wold love to have Excel spreadsheets for weapon and vehicle creation in T2K13. Someone made some for me for use with T2K 2.2. My personal Excel-Fu in nonexistent, and I can't even fix or add to the spreadsheets I have except by organized fudging. Anyone out there with high Excel-fu belts able to help me out

I use Excel quite a bit for work. What do you need to do

[Targan]

I use Excel quite a bit for work. What do you need to do

If I may offer my (albeit limited) assistance here, the main things you'd need to start with for the weapons creation spreadsheets would be a bunch of drop-down tables to reference to, and access to (or being able to reverse-engineer) the algorithms that the designers themselves used to create their T2013 weapon stats. In the latter regard I think Tegyrius' knowledge would be invaluable, but that knowledge may also be proprietary commercial information.

[Medic]

Though not requested, I decided to give a shot in creating another Finnish weapon for 2013.

7.62 KvKK 62

The Finnish light machinegun, now being phased out in the favour of heavier PKM machinegun. It, like the PKM, is used as a SAW and imbedded in every infantry squad. While frontline troops have already been equiped with the PKM, second line of reservists still field this very fast firing and accurate weapon.

The operation is mostly copied from the Czech vz. 52 machinegun. The weapon has no quick-changee barrel, but the hard-chromed barrel can withstand a huge volume of fire before heating up to a degree where it starts to bend (this has been tested by the author ). It has a very high rate of sustainable fire, around 1000-1100 rounds per minute, but individuals with experience with the weapon can actually use it to fire single shots (single shots posible by the decree of the GM).

The weapon has an integrated bipod as well as a carrying handle on the top as well as a suspender styled dual sling that allows stowing the weapon on the back like a rucksack (usefulness can be debated) and the cleaning rod is mounted on the side of the buttstock. For logistical purposes the KvKK, short for Kevyt Konekiv$$ri (=light machinegun), uses the same 7.62x39mm cartridge as the Finnish assault rifle, which allows the squad to allocate ammo for the machinegun from it's own internal stores (and by the time of it's creation, from the most probable enemy, the USSR).

Many of those, who have gotten to handle and fire this weapon learn three or four things very quickly. First, the weapon is very, very accurate. Second, when assembling the weapon after cleaning it, be careful whe attaching the upper reciever to the lower, or you lose some skin as the parts slide in place and the recoil spring and rod asembly can be screwed in to place so that the weapon can neither be loaded or fired. Third, when firing blanks or weaker charges than the normal combat round (the Soviet/Russian M43), the heavy bolt assembly will not far enough to recharge the weapon and thus causing jams. Fourth thing is that the trigger assembly in the older weapons will most probably fail at some point, causing the weapon to cyclic through the remaining belt unless the gunner grasps the belt and yanks it, causing a missfeed.

Caliber 7.62x39mm
Capacity 100
Damage 7
Penetration x2/x3
Range M/S
Rate of Fire B4/B14
Speed 4/6/9
Recoil 6
Bulk 5
Weight 8.5kg
Barter Value GG1,300
Street Price $4,400

Stage III quirks:

Quirky Trigger: Once the Wear-value of the weapon reaches 6 or higher, roll twice for malfunctions with the latter roll recieving +1 to the actual Wear-value. If the second roll fails, the weapon enters in a 'wild fire'-condition, emptying the remaining rounds on the belt at the highest possible rate of fire, unless the gunner uses an action to stop it by yanking the belt. The trigger spring must be replaced after this, either by cannibalizing or manufacturing a new one.

Cold Tolerance: Built on standards to allow reliable operation in the Finnish climate, the weapons maintenance requirements are not raised by cold weather and extreme cold is treated like cold.

[Tegyrius]

Thanks for this - most appreciated.

Two further questions for you (hopefully you don't mind me picking your brain with this). Firstly am I right in thinking that in terms of game mechanics the HK-416 is the same as the M4A1

Close enough for government work. For more precision, I believe Justin gave it an entry in Shooter's Guide: Sweet Sixteen.

Secondly do the following set of stats for the Zastava M21 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zastava_M21) sound right:

Zastava M21

Calibre: 5.56x45mm
Capacity: 30
Damage: 6
Penetration: x2/x3
Range: Medium/Sniping
ROF: S/B5
Speed: 3/5/7
Recoil: 4
Bulk: 3
Weight: 3.85kg

Thanks for your help with this.

Its cyclic rate is closer to B4 than B5, and I think that combination of barrel length and sight radius would give it carbine range bands (Tight/Open). Otherwise, that looks about right.

- C.

[Tegyrius]

I wold love to have Excel spreadsheets for weapon and vehicle creation in T2K13. Someone made some for me for use with T2K 2.2. My personal Excel-Fu in nonexistent, and I can't even fix or add to the spreadsheets I have except by organized fudging. Anyone out there with high Excel-fu belts able to help me out

If I may offer my (albeit limited) assistance here, the main things you'd need to start with for the weapons creation spreadsheets would be a bunch of drop-down tables to reference to, and access to (or being able to reverse-engineer) the algorithms that the designers themselves used to create their T2013 weapon stats. In the latter regard I think Tegyrius' knowledge would be invaluable, but that knowledge may also be proprietary commercial information.

Two items here.

First, Targan is unfortunately correct (it's not usually unfortunate that he's correct, just unfortunate in this instance). The ballistics formula and other design bible material are proprietary parts of the Reflex System. After 93GS ceased operations, ownership of Reflex reverted to Keith. While RPG.net wisdom is that you can't copyright game mechanics, I'm hesitant to test that beyond my own very limited (and "fair use") forays into supporting the remnants of the fan base. I'm even more hesitant about any action that would undermine any weapon- or vehicle-oriented products that a future owner of Reflex might want to release. I'm aware of four fans or fan groups who've attempted to contact Keith to secure the rights to the system, so that is still a going concern.

Second, a confession: the actual use of formulae, as opposed to guidelines and polite suggestions, is pretty limited. The ballistic characteristics themselves are the result of a formula Justin Stodola produced after I gave him a range of desired effects (which were, in turn, based on expected wound thresholds) and asked him to give me a ballistics calculator that produced those results for solid projectiles. We use the same formula for everything from .22 LR to 125mm tank rounds, albeit with some reducing constants applied for anything above the heavy machine gun class of ammo.

Values for body armor and light vehicle armor, in turn, are "engineered" off of the ballistic values, based on real-world performance. This is why one of my last actions as a member of the design team was to release a major erratum to vehicle armor values - I initially failed to do that for vehicles and we had a problem with battle rifles being able to take out MBTs with lucky hits. As several fans have inferred since, the original vehicle AVs in the core book, as well as those for MBTs and similarly heavy armor, use the same equivalencies that GDW used for the 2.0/2.2 rules.

For the rest of the small arms creation, a couple of other lesser formulas exist, but just as much of it involves comparing real-world performance data to established guidelines and going, "enhh, looks right in this light."

Sorry, guys. I know it's not the answer you were hoping for but it's the best one I can give at this time.

- C.

[Mahatatain]

Close enough for government work. For more precision, I believe Justin gave it an entry in Shooter's Guide: Sweet Sixteen.

Tegyrius,

Thanks for the info. I've now bought Shooter's Guide: Sweet Sixteen as I didn't realise that the HK416 was in there. It also has M110 SASS rifle in it which I also wanted.

Its cyclic rate is closer to B4 than B5, and I think that combination of barrel length and sight radius would give it carbine range bands (Tight/Open). Otherwise, that looks about right.

That's interesting about the barrel length and sight radius. The revised set of stats for the Zastava M21 are therefore as follows:

Zastava M21

Calibre: 5.56x45mm
Capacity: 30
Damage: 6
Penetration: x2/x3
Range: Tight/Open
ROF: S/B4
Speed: 3/5/7
Recoil: 4
Bulk: 3
Weight: 3.85kg

The M21 has a barrel length of 460 mm (18.1") but there are two other versions, the M21S, which appears to be their carbine version and has a barrel length of 375 mm (14.8") and the M21A, which is an SMG version and has a barrel length of 325 mm (12.8"). Therefore do the following stats make sense for them

Zastava M21S

Calibre: 5.56x45mm
Capacity: 30
Damage: 6
Penetration: x2/x3
Range: Tight/Medium
ROF: S/B4
Speed: 3/5/7
Recoil: 4
Bulk: 3
Weight: 3.8kg


Zastava M21A

Calibre: 5.56x45mm
Capacity: 30
Damage: 6
Penetration: x2/x3
Range: CQB/Medium
ROF: S/B4
Speed: 3/5/6
Recoil: 4
Bulk: 2
Weight: 3.59kg

Thanks again for your help with this.

[pmulcahy11b]

I use Excel quite a bit for work. What do you need to do

I should probably start by emailing you the spreadsheets I have (which the author himself said were imperfect, but they are useable if used right), so you can get an idea of what I need.

You know, I don't know why I can't learn to use Excel better. I'm pretty good with Access -- it can't be much harder.

[ShadoWarrior]

Excel is easier to learn to use than Access. And there are more self-help books for it.

[DigTw0Grav3s]

Hey Tegyrius. Earlydawn here, from the 93 Games forums.

I was wondering if you could stat out a couple systems for me.

Magpul's Personal Defense Rifle

I'm assuming that I could just stat this out as a 10-inch M4 carbine, but I know you said that bullpups get some kind of revalued speeds on account of ergonomics.

Shoulder-launched Multipurpose Assault Weapon

I'm curious as to how this stacks up against the Carl Gustav. I think it's shorter ranged. The CG can supposedly reach out to 1,000m now with rocket assisted rounds. How would one work the integral spotting rifle into the rules

As a bonus request, I've got a lot of people by me who have been playing Battlefield 3, so I'm sure I'm going to get some requests for flechette shells. I know these designs never really went anywhere for for shotguns, but if it did, how would you stat them out

Thanks!

[Milano]

Mahatain, I found what you were looking for from the old 93 games forum. I do not know if these are official or not but I must have thought they were good because I saved them. They are in the GUNSTRAVAGANZA document below.

Also did any of you, Paul or ArmySGT. especially, ever get the formulas worked out for the Excel Weapon creator (Tegyrius, I am not expecting a reply. I respect that you are being loyal.) I would like to change or modify my Excel program so that it can stat out small arms for TW2013 as well. If anyone has found anything about the formulas could you guide me in the right direction basically.