In MY Twilight:2000...what are your variants or canon-breaks?

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I've talked about my T2k options I'd have in my T2k game both globally and locally; what are yours

One I've decided I'll put in is that stateside the US still has many, many operational AFVs - a lot of them museum pulls so it's not uncommon to see a Sherman providing overwatch for an armored infantry company that moves around in an M113 and M56, for example. (Gas/alcohol to move them is another matter...)

[Olefin]

In mine I have the US pulling Sheridans out of storage for use in light infantry and MP divisions as well as raiding museums and private collections for older vehicles like Shermans that are still operable. Also have the M8 AGS going into service in early 1997 and being issued to a few divisions before production stopped after the nuclear exchange.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

as well as raiding museums and private collections for older vehicles like Shermans that are still operable.

This.

There's about 1500 usable armored vehicles in the CONUS in my T2k timeline, that's about 3 armored divisions worth...but they're scattered in kampfgruppes all across the US except in the southwest, where they tend to be concentrated in pre-TDM brigade-strength units for fighting the Mexicans and Division Cuba forces. Not all of these are "main battle" tanks, and not all of the main battle tanks are approaching modern - the majority are armored infantry fighting vehicles going all the way back to the M3 halftrack, and including armored humvees and armored cars, some M56 APCs, and so forth. Of the tanks, few M1s of any stripe are out there although there are some, a rare few (4-5) S120/M60-2000s. Most are M60A3s or A4s, M48A5s, with more than a few "appropriated" M4s, M41s, etc (about 300 or so from various armor museums, private collectors, that sort of thing). Plus more than a few M551s.

The real impact these have isn't on the battlefield, it's on the local areas they're near: either CIVGOV or MILGOV, when an armored team sets up shop near your town it can be a real curse: grease, oil, and just about any other POL products are "bought" up - usually with nearly worthless scrip or pre-war dollars. But at the same time the presence of an M3 and an improvised armored car bristling with machine-guns and 30-40 troops and their light-to-medium weapons to boot can mean the difference between being forcibly annexed by New American marauders and continuing to live a relatively peaceful existence.

Hmm, I may just have a story/supplement in there somewhere...

[Olefin]

I completely agree with you about their impact. Its one of the things that the GDW modules completly missed and one of their biggest failings. Which is why I am about to go out on a limb and follow Chico with a non-canon timeline addressing stuff like that.

Look at New America. While they are a lot better armed than the average civilian or police force a few Shermans or Sheridans would be a lot more than they could handle in most places.

And while they couldnt stand up to real MBT's unless you are on the Mexican front you wont be seeing MBT's to fight. At best you might be up against an armored car or truck armed with machine guns.

And if the non-canon Mexican Army sourcebook I saw a few weeks ago is indicative of what Mexico has then a Sheridan could still be very effective against them.

[boogiedowndonovan]

off the top of my head

units left out of the vehicle guides/orbats, for example US 177th armored, 193rd Infantry, Berlin Brigade, 173rd infantry, British and German Territorials, 3rd Netherlands Marine Corps battalion stationed on Aruba, etc, etc

with the draft reinstated, more units being formed

Operation Omega: I never bought into "US leaves ALL heavy equipment behind" since Going Home says that there is plent of room for everyone (I think, can't remember dont have it in front of me)

Belgium: Belgians don't roll over for the French, since over 50% of Belgians speak a variation of Dutch. Instead they honor their NATO commitments, send Paracommando Regt. to Norway, I corps to Germany (perhaps like the Dutch and Danes) then everything goes to crap after the nukes, French invade Belgium and establish Dead Zone, Belgian armed forces disintegrate, breaking into French speaking groups and Dutch speaking groups and head for home.

[Olefin]

I agree for sure with the Belgians - the ones who dont speak French have no love for them at all - so where is that half of Belguim seceding and a civil war breaks out in Belguim or fighting the incoming French forces

[pmulcahy11b]

Definitely a deal-breaker: a unit composed entirely of Elmer Fudd clones!

[pmulcahy11b]

My primary variants are in what didn't actually get hit, and in what equipment, weapons, or vehicles made it to the party and what didn't.

My big one is the amount of megatonnage that hit San Antonio. I don't think there'd be enough left to have a Red Star, Lone Star. In campaigns I've run, the Soviet missiles bound for SA were taken out by US missiles who just happened to have hit the Soviet silos as the Soviet missiles were leaving theirs. A bit out there, but it could happen...

[dude_uk]

Britain
- Re-raising of units to justify the enlarged British army presence
- Territorial and reserve ORBATS
- Mechanised Territorial units.
- SOME units back home armed with L1A1's and Sterling's.
- British Army using Challenger 1's and 2's along with Cheiftains. No Centurions.
- Junking of most the gimmicky enemies in the UK (i.e The Red devils, the gang who wore suits etc) and replacing them with more feasible groups.
- Enlarged Nuke strike.


World
- Greece and Italy declare war on NATO Nope.
- 'Pyrrhic' NATO victory in Atlantic. Soviet fleet destroyed. But NATO too weak to take advantage.

[Targan]

Wherever possible in my campaigns I don't contradict canon. But I'm happy to add information to the game where it isn't contradictory, or where canon has big gaps. I don't get upset when I read discussions on data that is contrary to canon, but my fundamental point has always been this: if you move away from canon so much that the US remains a major military force late in the Twilight War (2001-onwards) you remove most of what makes T2K the game that it is. At that point I mentally switch off, because my interest in T2K is as a post apocalyptic RPG, not an exercise in roleplaying US forces dominating the world in a post-nuke environment.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

That's a good point, Targan; the thrust of T2k is people surviving under beyond desperate situations. Personally I think fiddling a little with this or that stateside situation isn't changing that much but like you I tend to MEGO when people start talking about the US still having three or four operational carriers, no civgov/milgov split, or DC didn't get hit at all, there's still POL available for air ops, etc.

That is, to me, like saying "Oh I play AD&D all the time - I just use 3e's Feats system, and 4e's Powers, and there are no level caps or class restrictions for demi-humans..." There's just a point at which you tip the balance and it's not AD&D (or rather, Twilight:2000) any more.

[B.T.]

Minor changes

From my point of view, Targan and raketenjagdpanzer mentioned the main point: How much change works without tossing it to far

I change a lot of smaller details. If I think, a unit is too weak for the purpose of my game sessions, I make them a little stronger or give a certain unit (from which canon says, they have no tanks) some tanks. Or I change the TOE for units (allthough this does not interfere with canon, as I understand it).

A lot of info on the history is rubbish. Especially the weired idea, Greek and Italy would unite against NATO; I mean WTF! But if I try to change this, I have really difficulties in explainig the overall situation in Southern Germany, for example.

If I can add more detail, I take this. Changing the data for vehicles or weapons is something I try to optimize.

[Olefin]

you can make changes to canon but do it where it doesnt change the game in a huge way - i.e. you can have american carriers that are still operational but have no fuel for their airplanes. However that still means that you have a very good nuclear powered ship for use for transporting stuff across the oceans - a la Omega or the reinforcement to the RDF in Dec 2000.

In my campaign in the end we decided that Howling Wildnerness and Kidnapped make no sense from an ecological and environment standpoint. The idea of the huge drought that destroys what is left of the US basically and kills off 75 percent plus of the population while Europe and the RDF get lots of rain just made for bad story telling. I..e - since we cant figure out what to do with the US so lets just kill it off.

Sorry that is just bad rushed story telling. For instance in Howling Wilderness only 1600 of the 30,000 plus men that come home are used as replacements Sorry but you dont use a ton of fuel, abandon hundreds of irreplaceable armored vehicles and aircraft in Europe to bring home men who do nothing.

Not when you have whole areas falling into anarchy and enemy invaders and marauders all over areas like Texas that are crucial to the future of the country.

And having the Oklahoma enclave fall and be erased - again bad story telling.

So when canon makes no sense - you ignore it -and come up with a better story.

So what did we do - we used the men to build up new units and reinforce old ones and started the US on a path toward recovery. One that compared to Howling Wildnerness could actually result in the 2300 AD timeline working. And we had droughts - but not the uber drought that basically killed the US that is supposedly canon.

And unlike others I can see Italy and Greece declare war on NATO. Remember when the canon was written and how socialistic both nations were then. Neither of them were exactly brimming with pro-US factions ready to fight to the death for Germany and the US.

[Targan]

I'm not a climatologist so I can't claim to have expert knowledge but I do have a pretty broad general knowledge. Also, I live in a country which, in recent decades, has seen crippling droughts that in all likelihood were the result of climate change brought about by human activities. I don't find the drought posited in Howling Wilderness to be so unrealistic as to be thrown out wholesale. In any case, in your campaign you could have the drought ending within a couple of years. That wouldn't see the US knocked back to the stone age.

As for US carriers roaming the high seas, I could maybe see a couple within a few years of 2001 being brought back into service. There have been discussions on this forum about US carriers and other major surface combatants being beached, docked or stranded for one reason or another that could be brought back into action. But a US carrier participating in Op Omega Sorry, but that directly contradicts canon so for any campaign I would run, there's not a compelling enough reason for me to include it.

[Olefin]

Not if the carrier is basically a large cargo ship. Those hangar decks would be perfect for carrying a lot of vehicles and a ship like that can hold 5000 men or more. And remember its not coming to operate aircraft - if anything it may be a landing pad for whatever helos and planes can get enough fuel to land on it - i.e. AV-8, AH-64, etc..

And keep in mind - the US is supposedly powerful enough that in 300 years its the second biggest space power after the French. There is no way after an uber drought that kills off most of the remaining population and destroys almost all of its remaining military forces that happens. It would take hundreds of years before you had anything more powerful than horse cavalry carrying rifles with a loss of people and technology like that. There wouldnt be an America left - and a few thousand troops in Iran arent enough to rebuild the US all by themselves.

And I dont see the French and the UK rebuilding the US or offering much help to the pitiful few survivors - almost all of whom are sitting deep in the interior of the country and thus cut off from even the RDF guys doing anything.

As for directly contradicting canon - the canon also says every USN SSN is lost except one - I have talked to a bunch of guys about that including naval veterans and there is no way that happens. If a Soviet Boomer survived then a bunch of Ohios had to.

Especially since canon suggests (the Caribbean module for instance) that there are still operational submarines out there. Otherwise why do the French twice attack the Corpus Cristi - if all the subs are gone why are they looking for subs not just in the Med but in the Channel as well

And really insisting on canon on a game that isnt being supported anymore is sort of like insisting that we all keep using card sorters and Commodore 64's instead of modern computers.