In MY Twilight:2000...what are your variants or canon-breaks?

[Webstral]

And really insisting on canon on a game that isnt being supported anymore is sort of like insisting that we all keep using card sorters and Commodore 64's instead of modern computers.

That is certainly one view.

[Targan]

Olefin, if you and your players are completely disllusioned with parts of the canon material, and altering it to be more palatable results in you being able to run a campaign, more power to you. An altered timeline and changes to canon are small prices to pay for there to be more T2K campaigns in the world.

[Webstral]

I should clarify, because my comment above makes it sound like I am a canon defender. I don't think purists would save a place for me in their formation. The established body of material has to be adjusted to allow for the fallability of the GDW team. I have invested considerable time in revamping some of the areas they dismissed, like nothern New England, southern Arizona, and Nevada.

[Rainbow Six]

The canon Survivor's Guide to the UK was a huge disappointment to me. It had a number of out and out factual errors, paid no more than lip service to the Territorial Army (and completely omitted to mention the Home Service Force) and had a number of proposals that in my opinion were simply not plausible - DudeUK has already mentioned the gimmicky marauder groups, and as for the idea of the Queen abdicating...eh, no, don't think so.

Hence the reason I've spent the last few years working on an alternate version that currently runs to approx 105 pages / 45,000 words and still isn't finished (I really must get my finger out and get some work done - Dude UK, marauder groups will probably be the next section completed!).

To summarise the changes

• A considerably expanded - and hopefully more realistic - Order of Battle that includes a small number of surviving Royal Navy warships and RAF aircraft.
• The Queen remains on the Throne until the nuclear exchanges when both she and Prince Charles are killed so Prince William ascends the Throne
• More meddling by the French
• No invasion of Northern Ireland by the Republic
• Slightly amended nuclear target list
• Some changes to Scotland - basically the Separatists only control part of the Central Belt, not the whole country - HMG still retains an enclave in the North.. I also discarded the Royal Army of Scotland and gave the Separatists an alternative Defence Force
• Discarded most of the marauder groups listed to be replaced by my own creations (a notable exception is the Duke of Cornwall, who I retained and expanded on)
• A whole host of minor changes - different Prime Minister, that sort of thing

With the exception of the situation in NI, I have retained the overall "look" of the UK put forward by canon - i.e. HMG still only controls south east England, parts of Wales and Scotland have declared independence, and much of the rest of the country is in anarchy.

I would like to think that the changes I've made don't radically change the basic tenets of the game as far as the global situation is concerned - for example, I would hope that the small number of operational warships doesn't give the impression that the Royal Navy is going to rule the High Seas.

[95th Rifleman]

The biggest change we have in our T2k games is the date, we shift the whole thing to the 80's but keep the timeline going pretty much as V1 reads.
It works surprisngly well and there is no fuss sourcing rules and material to cover the kit.

There are a few changes to the UK. I don't think many UK gaming groups ever used the wacky gang crap from survivor's guide. The main domestic enemies for our version are an organised and armed National Front and a much more active IRA. Princess Diana and the boys have been evacuated to Canada to keep a secure line of succession, Elisabeth II dies in London, refusing to abandon the capital and Charles becomes king.

However we prefer to set our games in Poland so the domestic background is normaly a moot point.

[Olefin]

Rainbow Six - I would love to see what you have on the UK as I agree with you on much of what was in the Survivors Guide to the UK - frankly some of the marauder groups in that guide made me wonder if a Monty Python writer had been part of its development.

And I agree whole heartedly about the Queen never abdicating and dying in London along with Charles in the attack. Especially considering she saw her father stay in London during the Blitz during WWII and what that meant for morale.

One thing I was expecting to see in the UK guide also was a lot of lets say unique hand weapons - while there arent a lot of guns in the UK there are a lot of museums and private collections full of some very interesting and fully functional medieval weapons. And you would be surprised at how many good archers there are still in some areas of the UK and Ireland. An English longbow, in the hands of a trained archer, is a very very dangerous weapon - and silent as well until the guy in your unit has an arrow sticking out of his chest.

[95th Rifleman]

Rainbow Six - I would love to see what you have on the UK as I agree with you on much of what was in the Survivors Guide to the UK - frankly some of the marauder groups in that guide made me wonder if a Monty Python writer had been part of its development.

And I agree whole heartedly about the Queen never abdicating and dying in London along with Charles in the attack. Especially considering she saw her father stay in London during the Blitz during WWII and what that meant for morale.

One thing I was expecting to see in the UK guide also was a lot of lets say unique hand weapons - while there arent a lot of guns in the UK there are a lot of museums and private collections full of some very interesting and fully functional medieval weapons. And you would be surprised at how many good archers there are still in some areas of the UK and Ireland. An English longbow, in the hands of a trained archer, is a very very dangerous weapon - and silent as well until the guy in your unit has an arrow sticking out of his chest.

The problem is finding skilled archers.

The British did not train archers in the middle ages, we bred them. Boys would start from around the age of 10 to 12 and develop their skills over years. At one point archery was required by law and many games and pastimes where banned in order to keep the youth of the country practising archery.

It was the devlopment of the crossbow and later on the musket that allowed for trained professionals to be effective in a relatively short time.

[Medic]

The problem is finding skilled archers.

The British did not train archers in the middle ages, we bred them. Boys would start from around the age of 10 to 12 and develop their skills over years. At one point archery was required by law and many games and pastimes where banned in order to keep the youth of the country practising archery.

It was the devlopment of the crossbow and later on the musket that allowed for trained professionals to be effective in a relatively short time.

If I do recall correctly, some British Navy ships carried longbows as secondary armament as late as the late 19th century. The longbow was pretty much equivalent to modern machineguns in medieval warfare as a skilled archer could fire about twelve arrows a minute. Multiply that by 50 or 100 and you get a bunch of hedgehogs on the other side...

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I kind of have to agree with Olefin; there's a lot of things in Howling Wilderness that just leave me flat - seriously, FL down to a population of 50000 And there's nearly that many alive in NYC alone, and Central Park, ripped up streets (ha) and rooftop gardens is enough food to keep that population there alive - through 3 post-bomb NE winters Yeah no.

FL exports more food of all kinds than it imports, period. I could accept a near 90% depopulation of the state after the hurricanes but that still leaves 2.2 million. Given that Orlando isn't on the strike list and that on Thanksgiving Day there'd be a lot of people in Central Florida...well, yeah, I don't agree with 100% canon.

But there's a danger with going against canon or throwing up your hands and saying "Too much of this doesn't make sense" and it goes back to the old D&D paradigm - you can accept a game where a guy in a blue robe and pointy hat can wiggle his fingers and cause 33,000 square feet to burst into flames hot enough to melt gold, soften iron and warp steel and barbeque anyone caught in it, but you can't accept that elves leave off being fighters after 7th level

Ultimately a game is in the hands of its players. One of the admonishments Mr. Gygax always gave was that modules were skeletal frameworks on which DMs could build campaigns and further flesh out adventures. In the great B2 Keep on the Borderlands, why are the monsters in basically a Conapt less than a mile from a castle teeming with humans Well...that's a question for the DM running the adventure to answer. I myself love the "Against the Giants" series of modules...but "Descent into the Depths of the Earth" not so much, and Q1 not at all. So it's up to me as a DM to change things around so maybe I run G1, G2 and G3 but it leads a whole different direction.

I, as a T2k "game-master" have the same prerogative. I think the "90% of the population dies" of Howling Wilderness is silly, so I'll ignore it/change it.

[Rainbow Six]

Rainbow Six - I would love to see what you have on the UK as I agree with you on much of what was in the Survivors Guide to the UK - frankly some of the marauder groups in that guide made me wonder if a Monty Python writer had been part of its development.

Olefin, check out this thread for where I'm at at the moment...

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.phpt=2947

[rcaf_777]

Operation Omega: I never bought into "US leaves ALL heavy equipment behind" since Going Home says that there is plent of room for everyone (I think, can't remember dont have it in front of me)

I always though that Omega would be two or three runs, and with the US mainland invaded on two fronts, I can't see the US leaving any armour behind. I invsion a chop shop operation that allow for equipement to disassembyed and sent home, I also see resource recovery teams being sent out to find items needed, Ammo, POL, Salvage, Food ect, both in europe and the US

[schnickelfritz]

I've been working on a narrative that tells a tale where the US 5th ID (M) isn't completely destroyed.

I think it's relatively plausable, but it is certainly a departure from canon...and I like it.

The fact that I sense that Leg doesn't is a bit of a bonus, har har.

What I wanted was the ability to create some sort of campaign with units like I see in the RDF sourcebook, and after getting a pdf copy of the Eastern European Sourcebook, it made it easier to tackle.

I also use the M8 Buford AGS instead of the LAV-75. I'm still a bit stuck on what the heck to do with the MPGS-90 from the US Army VG.

I also keep the US 43rd MP Brigade from disintegrating. Colonel Fort dies of stress related natural causes and returning European Theater vets help reassert control and cooperation with the Isolationists.

-Dave

[Legbreaker]

I've been working on a narrative that tells a tale where the US 5th ID (M) isn't completely destroyed.

I think it's relatively plausable, but it is certainly a departure from canon...and I like it.

The fact that I sense that Leg doesn't is a bit of a bonus, har har.

Do what you like, it's your game. You might want to be careful that it doesn't upset the balance too much though and give Nato too much power. Try beefing up one or more of the Pact units to compensate.

As Targan has said, change is good, as long as it doesn't give one side or the other an undeserved edge thereby radically altering the world. Even doubling the number or tanks a Division has on hand, or introducing a nuclear powered ship into the North Sea will seriously destabilise the delicate balance the designers created and result in a completely different strategic situation.

Every change can have unintended consequences. Every change needs to be thoroughly thought out with ALL the implications explored.

[Olefin]

One change in my timeline concerned Omega and it was the US ordering an initial withdrawal of a couple of divisions with their equipment before the general Omega order was given. Thus those units got to keep their heavies since that order was given prior to the deal with the Germans to evac the rest of the US forces.

And considering the state of the Mexican forces in the Texas module even one division with some tanks may be all it takes now to get most of the Texas Gulf Coast back to the US while still leaving a pretty big area of Texas to form an independent Texas state as well.

[Webstral]

The fact that I sense that Leg doesn't is a bit of a bonus, har har.

Although I generally don't like emoticons, this would be a good place for a smiley face.

Legbreaker and I aren't on the best of terms, but I try to avoid giving the impression that I want bad blood. My remark about his preference for the Mad Max end of the spectrum was intended as an honest summary of the tenor of his posts and observations over the past few years, not as an effort to denigrate his preferences. I would be unhappy to believe that I have opened the door on a hatin' session towards any member of the forum who prefers to stick to the published material.