canon versus non-canon in a non-supported game

[Targan]

Then that changed. New members started to arrive, and not all of them were interested in building consensus. I put up some posts regarding the potential positive impact of airships in the wake of Airlords of the Ozarks. Some posters replied with items to be taken into consideration. Others replied oeThat wont work. Im paraphrasing, but one gets the idea. I didnt see the pattern at the time. However, the blowout over the DC Groups very ambitious scheme for the Operation Omega forces demonstrated conclusively that not everyone who was frequenting this forum wanted to work together to expand on the existing body of material"emphasis being on the phrase oeworking together. Many of the old hands have moved on, and what was once a pretty darned cooperative community has become markedly less so.

You'll recall that I was right on board with the airships discussion. Airlords of the Ozarks is one of my favorite CONUS modules. As for the DC Group's departure and associated unhappiness, I regret ever having played any part in those disputes. Matter of fact, I'm pretty disappointed in myself for not self-editing more carefully some of my comments in discussions of the last few weeks. So, yeah, my apologies.

Sometimes I get so caught up in discussing one or two of the latest posts I've read, I lose sight of the big picture. It might not seem like it sometimes but I'm not rabidly pro-canon. I admit that I prefer to expand on or tweak canon over wholesale re-writes of it. Maybe that distinction sometimes gets lost a bit in my posts.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

...but I would rather have a vital campaign that uses non-canon material to flesh out the world of Twilight 2000 than one that runs out of material or wont go certain places because canon was either silent or because canon is exhausted

Ultimately, this is the responsibility of the GM and to some extent the Players, if a campaign runs out of steam because the GM slavishly followed published material and didn't bother to do anything more, then the GM is going to run out of stories to tell real quick for some game systems.

However, the blowout over the DC Groups very ambitious scheme for the Operation Omega forces demonstrated conclusively that not everyone who was frequenting this forum wanted to work together to expand on the existing body of material"emphasis being on the phrase oeworking together.

Much of that debate wasn't over what they wanted to do or who contributed what and when, it was when some people declared that it would be canon material and a lot of the debate was over what the meaning of "canon" actually is and no matter how well intentioned, anybody not given authority by the licence holder cannot actually make 'canon' material.

[Rainbow Six]

I must admit to a certain trepidation at posting anything non-canon.

As others have said, go for it...

[Rainbow Six]

anybody not given authority by the licence holder cannot actually make 'canon' material.

Absolutely agree with that statement. No matter how well intentioned we are, no matter how good the material we produce is, even if other people use it, it is not canon and never can be.

Even if someone produced something about an area more or less untouched by canon (South Africa for example) and even if that material won plaudits from the entire community, it could not be considered canon in my opinion.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

...Even if someone produced something about an area more or less untouched by canon (South Africa for example) and even if that material won plaudits from the entire community, it could not be considered canon in my opinion.

And nor would it be considered 'canon' in any legal, ethical or moral sense.

[Olefin]

Actually it can be considered canon but as a fan canon - things like the Czechoslovak, Polish and Mexican field guides which support canon fully - are very useful for all fans without ever being officially issued by GDW or FarFuture

[Rainbow Six]

Actually it can be considered canon but as a fan canon - things like the Czechoslovak, Polish and Mexican field guides which support canon fully - are very useful for all fans without ever being officially issued by GDW or FarFuture

I think we'll need to amicably agree to disagree on this one...

[Olefin]

thats fine Rainbow - and by the way your UK survivor guide is a great fan canon guide - and it can even work with the regular canon as to expanding some of the info in it - i.e. you can pick and choose some of your stuff to fill in areas of the UK but without contradicting the canon in any way

same with other fan canon areas - i.e. you can take some of their details and work them into canon modules but as added details that just make the module come alive more but in no way change that module otherwise

(i.e. use the Mexican Army fan sourcebook to correct the equipment in the City of Angels to match what they would have had instaed of the Soviet equipment - but on a one for one basis so its the same number of tanks or APC's, just more realistic equipment)

[James1978]

And the only conflict I see being generated here is by you and a few other canon defenders who act like any deviation from canon is like spitting on the Bible.

After reading what is going on in the other thread, I feel the need to speak up.

While I personally enjoy seeing what different people come up with that expands on or deviates from cannon, I find your comment above disingenuous.

You didn't show up as a newcomer and just say "hey, here is my take on things and what my group did." You came in here as a newcomer and chose to stir the pot by calling out Legbreaker by name and inserting yourself into preexisting differences on matters of canon. If anyone generated conflict, it was you.

You've taken a very condescending tone toward others. You seem to have a desire to not just be right be right, but to prove that everyone else is wrong. We're talking about what is basically alternate history based on an RPG written in the 1980s. There may not always be one right answer, but instead many possible answers which people can pick and choose from as works best for their group. Your group's game evolved in a certain way - great! That means you had fun added detail where needed.

You've clearly given a lot of time and thought to your materials, and it comes through. I for one hope to see a lot more. But as someone else already said - it's not so much what you are saying, as how you are saying it. You may have read years worth of archived threads, but you are still the new guy.

[Sanjuro]

Having joined a few rpg forums over the last year or two, I have read on others about the damage done by "canon wars" (no pun intended). I had never actually seen one in action.
An escalating argument has managed to set people against each other, who previously could disagree amicably.
I would recommend the use of the "ignore all postings by this user" function if anyone offends you... assuming you haven't already used that function on my posts of course!
My personal opinion is that canon is only the material published by GDW, or officially licensed by them. Even the most logical assumption leading from published material can best be described as "canon infers that..."
If, as a group, we want to expand that canon in a joint way, that is still not canon... just a group expansion of "in my T2k world."
As others have said, the GDW T2k material was an immense piece of work by a small company, without the internet to help research, and while also supporting several other games. Much of the knowledge we use to contradict GDW stuff was in fact secret at the time the game was published- I have never forgotten the weird experience of seeing a TV news programme explain during GW1, how a certain weapon system worked. Only 5 or 6 years earlier I had seen a briefing of the same facts, preceded by the warning "You have all signed the Official Secrets Act- if you repeat or discuss this material you will almost certainly be sent to prison, probably for several years."
I have edited this post, in line with Raellus' warning, to remove the part assigning blame for the argument. With hindsight that was not helpful!

[Raellus]

Hi folks.

As a forum moderator, I feel the need to step in here. My cautionary post has been ignored and what I feared is coming to pass. Although most of you are approaching the current canon debate in a more or less responsible, respectful, and constructive manner, a couple of you are clearly not. As a result, I am seriously considering closing this and all other "canon discussion" threads. I will also be discussing this issue with my fellow moderators.

As a community, I really don't think we can afford the kind of drama and acrimony that chases off members. Please, everyone just chill out.

Raellus

[raketenjagdpanzer]

In deference to people who prefer a by the book T2k Canon (e.g. what and only what is printed in the rules and modules, plus Challenge magazine, end of story) I will always say from the outset or perhaps in a new thread that I start "this is non-canon". I tend towards my T2k as more of a "cozy catastrophe" and tend to get away from canon more than a little bit here or there (like the drought and the casualties therefrom), so any efforts or offerings I have will have those leanings.

However, I have tried to steer clear of anything too egregious (Patriot missiles knocking down most of the inbound contacts on Thanksgiving Day, the USN still being mostly intact, etc.) but should I skate that direction I certainly won't "push" it (like saying "hey since the books don't mention any B52s being shot down, we must still have an operational B52 fleet, canon supports it." - that's a bit over the top but I think y'all get where I'm coming from.

Now I am officially out of the business of T2k Forum Drama. I love the overall game, I'd play whether someone was running strict canon or homebrew or whatever, and I am going to go back to talking about T2k, not the politics of canon v. non-canon.