French unit sizes as an indication of casualites they have taken in the war

[Olefin]

Posting this here (just put it up in the RDF canon omissions thread as well but thought it merited its own thread) to start a discussion on an area that hasnt really been touched too much by the canon - which is how badly have the French been hit by the war in terms of casualties. The RDF is one of the few places where we have canon numbers that can give us a real indication.

repost from RDF Omissions Module

Leg, I got my data from the French Defense Dept site - which is in French by the way and you need to google translate it - the English version of the site has no info on it that is useable.


Here for instance is the address for the 6th Light Armored Brigade

http://www.defense.gouv.fr/terre/pre...legere-blindee

To be clear Leg and James - what is on that site is the actual serving manpower and equipment, not a TOE or projected strength, but the actual number of men and women who are physically part of those units, including where they have been posted in the past.

The site is very specific about how many men and in most cases tanks or armored fighting vehicles are physically in reality in the units themselves (i.e. living breathing servicemen and women, not what could be there but what is there), not a projection or TOE statement that is not the real strength.

If you look at the information it clearly is a trend - I looked at several different formations and you can clearly see a trend that shows the French have taken a lot of losses

To summarize so far

1st Foreign Legion Cavalry Regiment in reality is 930 men and 48 AMX-10 RC, in the game its 600 men and 24 AFV's. (which would be the AMX-10 RC vehicles)

13th Foreign Legion Demi-brigade (posted in Djibouti since 1962) in reality is 800 men, in the game its 500 men and they would only have been in that country - they havent been posted anywhere else to take casualties

2nd Foreign Legion Infantry Regiment - in reality its at 1230 men organized into ten companies, making it the largest regiment in the French Army (that is a direct quote from the site referenced above). In the game it has 600 men. That is over 50 percent casualty rate!

2nd Foreign Legion Parachute Regiment- which has seen no fighting since it arrived in the Middle East - in reality it has 1140 men organized into 9 compainies, in the game it has 600 men. Again almost a 50% casualty rate.

3rd Foreign Legion Infantry Regiment - in reality it has 675 men organized into 5 companies, in the game it doesnt appear but its very obvious that it should be the deployed unit and not the 1st Regiment for reasons I state below

1st Marine Regiment - 933 men and 18 AMX 10 RC in reality - in the game they have 500 men and no vehicles, meaning they have lost all their armor and almost half their men.

2nd Marine Regiment - 933 men (broken down as 58 officers, 269 NCO, 606 other ranks) in reality, in the game they are at 500 men - again a huge loss rate

3rd Marine Parachute Regiment - in reality 1120 men in 8 companies, in the game they are down to 750 men

http://www.defense.gouv.fr/terre/pre...erie-de-marine

1st Foreign Legion Infantry Regiment - this formation is an administrative regiment that is completley administrative and is not a field formation and hasnt been for decades - they are not deployable. If it was ever sent it would never have gone into the field but be an HQ unit only.


This is a clear pattern of the French taking a lot of casualties with some units being reduced by 50 percent or more, in several cases units that would only have been in Africa.

Thus the French, in many ways, have taken almost as bad a beating as the Americans have in the RDF in fighting the Somalis, Ethiopians, Eritreans, etc.. at Djibouti. These arent fresh units showing up - these are units that have seen a heck of a lot of combat, with deep holes in their TOE's and a lot of equipment and vehicles gone.

They havent taken those casualties in the Middle East itself - the canon is very clear that they are not doing any fighting there.

I am continuing to do research but so far the trend is definitely a large reduction in manpower and vehicles for every unit I have seen so far in the French FAR, including among units that have done nothing but be garrison troops since they showed up.

There is fighting mentioned in Senegal and Mauritania against pro-Soviet guerrillas in the bio of the French commander of the FAR - but that wouldnt explain the losses in the units that were in Djibouti the whole time.

I will look at other modules but information on the French tends to be pretty spotty. For instance a bunch of units are mentioned in Going Home - but no idea of how many men they have at all.

[James Langham]

Great research, really interesting read. Looks like we may need to all consider the canon position on this.

[RN7]

It is possible that GDW made some errors in manpower figures when listing the French orbat in RDF.

From RDF:

The French Force Actione Rapide (FAR or Rapid Action Force) is the visible symbol of French military and diplomatic presence in the Persian Gulf region. The FAR was created in the 1980's to provide France with power projection capabilities similar to those of CENTCOM. Like CENTCOM, it is a unified command.

The first major deployment of the FAR came in the fall of 1995. The Foreign Legion Operational Group was activated and sent to Djibouti to assist in internal security duties. A task force of French Marine Infantry was stationed at Dakar at the request of the Senegalese government. In 1998, when the Franco-Belgian Union was formed, Senegal and Djibouti became member nations. The biggest break came when the governments of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia gave permission for France to station troops in their countries (to the chagrin of some Americans in the region). The Paris government responded quickly and by fall of 1998, the 9th Marine Infantry Division and the 2nd Brigade of the 11th Airborne Division were in the region along with supporting elements. There they have remained, providing a visible symbol of France's commitment to the stability of the region (and to assure that France gets its share when the Americans leave).

Structure: The FAR, like CENTCOM, is composed of forces from all the military services of the nation. The ground force component consists of the 9th Marine Infantry Division, the 11th Airborne Division, the 1st Light Armored Division, and the Foreign Legion Operational Group. The naval component is built around the Guided Missile Cruiser Jean Bart, and her escorts. Special operations are handled through the Unconventional Warfare Operations Group, which controls the Marine Commando Group (naval commandos) and the 1st Marine Parachute Regiment.

Not all of these units are fully deployed in the Persian Gulf


RDF French Order of Battle

Rapid Action Force (FAR) HQ: Djibouti, Djibouti
Foreign Legion Operational Group (GOLE) HQ: Djibouti
13th Foreign Legion Demi-brigade (500 men) Djibouti
1st Foreign Legion Infantry Rgt (600 men) Basra, Iraq
2nd Foreign Legion Infantry Rgt (600 men) Djibouti
1st Foreign Legion Cavalry Rgt (600 men, 24 AFVs): Djibouti
2nd Foreign Legion Parachute Rgt (600 men) Al Kuwayt,Kuwayt

11th Airborne Division HQ: Al Qatif, Saudi Arabia
2nd Brigade HQ: Al Qatif, Saudi Arabia
425 Airborne Support Command (300 men): Al Qatif, Saudi Arabia
1st Senegalese Parachute Rgt (600 men): Al Qatif, SA
6th Marine Parachute Rgt (750 men): Al Qatif, SA
3rd Marine Parachute Rgt (750 men): Al Qatif, SA
1st Airborne Chasseur Rgt (750 men): Al Qatif, SA
1st Marine Parachute Rgt (700 men): Basra, Iraq
1st/35th Abn Arty Rgt (200 men): Al Qatif, Saudi Arabia
3rd Troop, 1 st Airborne Hussar Rgt (120 men, 24 AFVs): Al Qatif, Saudi Arabia
2nd Company, 17th Airborne Engineer Rgt
2nd Company, 5th Combat Helicopter Rgt (12 Dauphin, 4 Ecureils, 4 Super Pumas)

9th Marine Division HQ: Al Kuwayt, Kuwayt
Marine Group HQ: Al Kuwayt, Kuwayt
1st Marine Infantry Rgt (500 men): Al Kuwayt, Kuwayt
2nd Marine Infantry Rgt (500 men): Al Kuwayt, Kuwayt
1st/11th Marine Arty Rgt (180 men): Al Kuwayt, Kuwayt
1st Company, 1st Marine Tank Rgt (120 men, 13 AFVs):
Al Kuwayt, Kuwayt

Middle East Aviation Group HQ: Al Kuwayt, Kuwayt
15th Ftr Squadron (200 men, 16 Mirage 2000s)
25th Ftr Squadron (200 men, 16 Mirage 2000s)
292nd Attack Squadron (200 men, 16 Mirage 4000s)
161st Transport Squadron (300 men, 8 Transall C-160)
193rd Air Refuelling Squadron (300 men, 4 KC-110s)


The real life FAR was composed of the following units.

4th Division Aeromobile: Nancy
6th Division Legere Blindee: Nimes
9th Division Marine: Nantes
11th Division Parachutiste: Toulouse
27th Division Alpine: Grenoble
Brigade logistique de la FAR: Maisons Lafittes
19th Brigade dartillerie: Maisons Lafittes


4th Division Aeromobile - Nancy, France: 5100 personnel
1st Regiment d'Infanterie (RI): 64 Milan, 8 81mm mortars, 12 120mm mortars
1st Regt d'Helicopteres de Combat (RHC): 8 Alouette III, 24 Gazelle/HOT, 8 Gazelle/20mm, 24 Super Puma
3rd Regt d'Helicopteres de Combat (RHC): 8 Alouette III, 24 Gazelle/HOT, 8 Gazelle/20mm, 24 Super Puma
5th Regt d'Helicopteres de Combat (RHC): 8 Alouette III, 24 Gazelle/HOT, 8 Gazelle/20mm, 24 Super Puma
4th Regiment de Commande-ment et de Manoeuvre (RCS) Nancy: 8 Alouette III, 8 Super Puma
9th Regiment de Soutien Aromobile Phalsbourg:

6th Division Legere Blindee (DLB) - Nimes, France: 7400 personnel - Light Armoured Division
1st Regiment de Spahis (RS) Valence: 36 AMX10RC, 3 VAB, 12 VAB/HOT
1st Regiment Etrangere de Cavalerie (REC) Orange: 36 AMX10RC, 3 VAB, 12 VAB/HOT
2nd Regt Etrangere d'Infanterie (REI) Nimes: VAB Regiment
21st Regt d'Infanterie de Marine (RIMa) Frjus: VAB Regiment
68th Regiment d'Artillerie (RA) La Valbonee: 24 BF50 155mm towed
43rd Regiment dArtillerie de Marine La Valbonne: Moblization only
6th Regiment Etrangere du Genie (REG)(Foreign Legion Combat Engineers):
6th Regiment de Commande-ment et de Soutien (RCS) Nimes:

9th Division Marine - St Malo, France: 8000 personnel
Regiment d'Infanterie-Chars de Marine (RICM) Vannes: 36 ERC-90S (to AMX-10RC, 1990), 3 VAB, 12 VAB/HOT
1st Regt d'Infanterie de Marine (RIMa) Angoulame: 36 ERC-90S (to AMX-10RC, 1990), 3 VAB, 12 VAB/HOT
2nd Regt d'Infanterie de Marine (RIMa) Le Mans: Marine Infantry Regiment
3rd Regt d'Infanterie de Marine (RIMa) Vannes: Marine Infantry Regiment
11th Regiment d'Artillerie de Marine (RAMa) La Lande dOuee: 24 BF50 155mm towed
2nd Regiment dArtillerie de Marine (RAMa) Montlhery: Mobilization only
6th Regiment du Genie (RG)(Combat Engineers) Angers: 2 companies
9th Regiment de Commande-ment et de Soutien (RCS) Nantes:

11th Division Parachutiste - Toulouse, France: 13500 personnel
1st Regiment de Hussards Parachutists (RHP) Tarbes: 36 ERC 90S, 12 Milan
1st Parachutiste d'Infanterie de Marine (RPIMa) Bayonne: Parachute Infantry Regiment
3rd Parachutiste d'Infanterie de Marine (RPIMa) Carcasonne: Parachute Infantry Regiment
6th Parachutiste d'Infanterie de Marine (RPIMa) Mont de Marsan: Parachute Infantry Regiment
8th Parachutiste d'Infanterie de Marine (RPIMa) Castres: Parachute Infantry Regiment
1st Regt de Chasseurs Parachutiste (RCP) Saint-Mdard-en-Jalles Camp de Souge: Parachute Infantry Regiment
9th Regt de Chasseurs Parachutiste (RCP) Pamiers: Parachute Infantry Regiment
2nd Regiment Etrangere Parachutiste (REP) Calvi: Parachute Infantry Regiment
35th Regiment d'Artillerie Parachutiste (RAP) Tarbes: 24 AU50 105mm towed
24th Regiment dArtillerie Saint Avold: Mobilization only
17th Regiment du Genie Parachutiste (RGP)(Airborne Combat Engineers) Montauban:
7th Regiment Parachutiste de Commande-ment et de Soutien (RPCS) Castres:
14th Regiment Parachutiste de Commande-ment et de Soutien (RPCS) Toulouse:

27th Division Alpine - Grenoble, France: 8500 personnel
4th Regiment de Chasseurs metropolitains (RCh): 36 AML-90, 3 VAB, 12 Jeeps w/Milan
6th Battalion Chasseurs Alpin (BCA) Varces: Alpine Infantry Battalion
7th Battalion Chasseurs Alpin (BCA) Bourg Saint Maurice: Alpine Infantry Battalion
11th Battalion Chasseurs Alpin (BCA) Barcelonnette: Alpine Infantry Battalion
13th Battalion Chasseurs Alpin (BCA) Chambry: Alpine Infantry Battalion
27th Battalion Chasseurs Alpin (BCA) Annecy: Alpine Infantry Battalion
159th Regiment d'Infanterie Alpine (RIA) Briancon: Alpine Infantry Battalion
93rd Regiment d'Artillerie Alpine Varces: 24 AU50 105mm towed
75th Regiment dArtillerie Alpine Varces: Mobilization only
7th Battalion du Genie Alpine (BGDA) Avignon:
27th Groupe-ment d'Helicopteres (GHL): 19 Alouette III, 11 Super Puma, 30 Gazelle/HOT
27th Regiment de Commande-ment et de Soutien (RCS) Grenoble:

FAR Organic Units
17th Regiment de Commande-ment et de Soutien (RCS) Maisons-Lafitte:
28th Regiment de Transmissions Orleans:
602nd Regiment de Circulation Routiere Dijon:
511th Regiemnt du Train:

Foreign Legion Group - Aubagne, France:
1st Regt Etrangere d'Infanterie (REI): VAB Regiment

Other
1t Regiment Parachutiste d'Infanterie de Marine (RPIMa) - used for SAS type missions:
Fusiliers-Marins: A 590 man 6 company Marine Commando unit.

East Africa All units in Djibouti
13th Demi Brigade Legion Etrangere: 3 Infantry Cos, 1 AMX-10RC co, 1 mixed 105mm/155mm artillery battery
5th Regiment Inter-Armees Outre Mere: 3 Infanty Cos, 1 AMX-13 co, 1 mixed 105mm/155mm artillery battery
ALAT Detachment: 5 medium transport helicopters (SA-330)
10th Battalion de Commande-ment et de Soutien (BCS)
Squadron, Armee de lAire: 10 F-1C, 1 C-160, 2 SA-316, 1 SA-319

[boogiedowndonovan]

3rd Foreign Legion Infantry Regiment - in reality it has 675 men organized into 5 companies, in the game it doesnt appear but its very obvious that it should be the deployed unit and not the 1st Regiment for reasons I state below

2nd edition Nato Vehicle Guide has 3rd Foreign Legion Infantry Regiment in Kourou, Guiana guarding the Guiana Space Center (which is part of its RL duties). From what I understand, they also run a tough jungle warfare school.

If you want to go by canon, then thats where 3rd Foreign Legion Infantry Regiment is located.

and where is our resident Frenchman, Mohender, these days Haven't seen him posting in awhile.

here's his oob

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.phpt=207

[Olefin]

RN I agree totally with the FAR in the game not matching the FAR in real life - it doesnt make any sense because as far as I remember the FAR and its components in real life were set before GDW issued that module.

And things like using the 1st Foreign Legion Regiment and missing units that had been deployed in Djibouti, in some cases for decades before the module was issued. If you read the RDF is makes it sound like the FAR showed up in 1995 and before that the French werent in the area when in reality - and by that I mean 1984 reality when they were putting the game together - they had been there for two decades!

this is yet another reason why I have been arguing that the canon needs to be corrected - at the least to get the right units there that really made up the FAR.

Right now, the way the canon reads, the French have taken a heck of a beating in those units for a country that is not at war and that has only been fighting guerrillas (these units were not part of the invasion of the Netherlands, Luxembourg and Germany in any way after all)

at the least it paints a picture of a lot of fighting in Djibouti that occurred to reduce those units that much

[James Langham]

The answer to the 1st may be an expansion of the Foreign Legion, I touched on this in my Foreign Troops article and may well now incorporate this.

[Olefin]

I agree with you there James - i.e. they make the 1st back into a combat unit and move the administrative elements to possibly the 4th regiment which was a training regiment - so now its responsible for both administration and training.

They could use some of the NCO's and officers from the original 1st as the officers and men for the "new" 1st Regiment.

One reason could be the big casualties that the other regiments took - i.e. they needed more punch in the field so they added a new regiment to give the Legion more combat punch.

By the way - another idea could be they convert one of the Engineering Regiments to a combat one and then rename it from Engineering to Infantry.

[Ironside]

Could disease have contributed to the losses France could be unable to deliver adequate medical supplies to its forces in Africa.

Historically, until the discovery of anti-biotics, disease was the biggest killer of troops.

[Olefin]

I think that the losses are a combination of combat losses in Djibouti and Western Africa (the RDF does mention the FAR was in combat against pro-Soviet guerrillas in Mauritania and Senegal) as well as disease. And there could be another factor as well - i.e. they may have had ships sunk by Soviet submarines as well.

Even though the canon doesnt mention it neutrals have always been fair game in wartime - and France seems very committed to staying out of the war at all costs - even if it means ignoring attacks on its shipping by a Soviet submarine commander who shoots first and does ship recognition second. So could a ship full of AMX 10 RC armored cars have been sunk by a Soviet sub and thus explain why unit has no armored vehicles left at all

Very possible.

Their is one other factor which would be desertion. As was mentioned in the Survivors Guide to the UK there are a sizeable minority of French officers and presumably soldiers who feel that France should be in this war against the Soviets. Possibly some of those who felt that way went over the hill once they got to the RDF and joined up with the Americans (or if they were Jewish possibly the Israeli forces in the area).

I wouldnt see a large number doing that - but it could explain some of the losses. (and open up a way for players who want to have French characters show up in the game in non-French units)

[Rainbow Six]

From RDF:

The French Force Actione Rapide (FAR or Rapid Action Force) is the visible symbol of French military and diplomatic presence in the Persian Gulf region. The FAR was created in the 1980's to provide France with power projection capabilities similar to those of CENTCOM. Like CENTCOM, it is a unified command.

The first major deployment of the FAR came in the fall of 1995. The Foreign Legion Operational Group was activated and sent to Djibouti to assist in internal security duties. A task force of French Marine Infantry was stationed at Dakar at the request of the Senegalese government. In 1998, when the Franco-Belgian Union was formed, Senegal and Djibouti became member nations. The biggest break came when the governments of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia gave permission for France to station troops in their countries (to the chagrin of some Americans in the region). The Paris government responded quickly and by fall of 1998, the 9th Marine Infantry Division and the 2nd Brigade of the 11th Airborne Division were in the region along with supporting elements. There they have remained, providing a visible symbol of France's commitment to the stability of the region (and to assure that France gets its share when the Americans leave).

(Bolding mine) Going off on a slight tangent here, that suggests to me that the French Government is still located in Paris in 1998, which is after the first wave of nuclear exchanges.

[Rainbow Six]

Perhaps some of the troops missing from the FAR were transferred from their parent units to reinforce units assigned to the Dead Zone

Just out of interest, checking the V2 NATO Vehicle Guide, the average size of a French Division in Europe appears to be around 4,000 men (approx).

[Rainbow Six]

Not all of these units are fully deployed in the Persian Gulf

The real life FAR was composed of the following units.

4th Division Aeromobile: Nancy
6th Division Legere Blindee: Nimes
9th Division Marine: Nantes
11th Division Parachutiste: Toulouse
27th Division Alpine: Grenoble
Brigade logistique de la FAR: Maisons Lafittes
19th Brigade dartillerie: Maisons Lafittes

Per NATO Vehicle Guide (V2 - French units aren't listed in V1) units not deployed to the Gulf were assigned as follows

4th Airmobile Division
Location: Nancy, France
Subordination: I Corps
Strength: 3,800 men

6th Light Armoured Division
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Subordination: III Corps
Strength: 4,400 men
Tanks: 36 AMX10RC

27th Alpine Division
Location: Grenoble, France
Subordination: I Corps
Strength: 4,400 men

Looks like some pretty substantial shortfalls in manpower compared to the figures in RN7's post - e.g. 27th Alpine is at almost half strength.

[Olefin]

Keep in mind that French divisions are smaller and are more like large brigades - but you are right about them being undermanned

Clearly the French have taken a lot of casualties

I dont see the FAR transferring men back to France - remember even the French dont have a lot of oil - if you read Going Home helos and armor patrols only happened if someone had a damn good reason - i.e. they had oil and gas but not a lot of it

by the way - the fact that the 6th Light is mentioned shows that the GDW guys didnt know about the real disposition of the French Army - because two of its regiments are sitting in the Middle East per the RDF module

[Rainbow Six]

Keep in mind that French divisions are smaller and are more like large brigades - but you are right about them being undermanned

Clearly the French have taken a lot of casualties

I dont see the FAR transferring men back to France - remember even the French dont have a lot of oil - if you read Going Home helos and armor patrols only happened if someone had a damn good reason - i.e. they had oil and gas but not a lot of it

I'm not suggesting there's regular movement between the Middle East and France. I think it's more likely that some of the troops assigned to the FAR never left France in the first place. Remember the occupation of the Dead Zone predates the French deployment to the Middle East, so it's possible that parts of the FAR were already committed in Europe before the Mid East deployment came up.

It seems to me that the most likely areas for the French to have suffered significant casualties are either the invasion of West Germany / the Netherlands (and subsequent actions) where they were in combat against the Dutch and (presumably) German Armies (iirc published material is a little light on details of what German units might have been involved) or losses incurred as a result of the nuclear attacks on France (of which we know there were some, just not the details).

Also worth considering that the French Army of T2K would have had large numbers of conscripts, which raises the question of what desertion rates would have been like

[RN7]

Per NATO Vehicle Guide (V2 - French units aren't listed in V1) units not deployed to the Gulf were assigned as follows

4th Airmobile Division
Location: Nancy, France
Subordination: I Corps
Strength: 3,800 men

6th Light Armoured Division
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Subordination: III Corps
Strength: 4,400 men
Tanks: 36 AMX10RC

27th Alpine Division
Location: Grenoble, France
Subordination: I Corps
Strength: 4,400 men

Looks like some pretty substantial shortfalls in manpower compared to the figures in RN7's post - e.g. 27th Alpine is at almost half strength.

NATO Vehicle Guide V2 seems to have some strage entries and ommisions. It lists the 4th French Armored Division as part of the French I Corps orbat, yet the 4th Armored Division doesn't seem to exist in real life.

NATO Vehicle Guide V2 also lists two Belgian divisions as part of the III French Corps whose French divisons are the 2nd and 10th Armored Divisons and the 8th Infantry Division. Yet according to Going Home there are only three French divisions in the French III Corps; 1st, 2nd and 17th Armored Divisions who have three Belgian armoured regiments, two Belgian armoured cavalry regiments, two Belgian mechanised infantry regiments, one Belgian artillery regiment, one Belgian paratroop regiments and a Senegalese infantry regiment. The 1st Armored Division is attached to the French I Corps in NATO Vehicle Guide V2, and the 17th armored division doesn't seem to exist.

NATO Vehicle Guide V2 seems to have assigned the 4th Airmobile Division and the 27th Alpine Division to the I French Corp, and the 6th Light Armored Division to the III French Corps when the 4th Airmobile and 6th Light Armored Divisions probably should have been sent to the Middle East with the rest of the FAR. GDW's thinking may have been that aviation assets woud be usefull to the French in Europe, but I think they forgot about the aviation assets assigned to the three French Corps in Europe which included them.

NATO Vehicle Guide V2 also seems to have missed out on all the French regional forces which organisationaly at least could muster 18 divisions and 7 brigades. Maybe the 4th and 17th Armored Divisions are taken from this.