US Recovery Plan

[Dog 6]

Well i think its time for me to sound off. as a combat vet GDW's "canon" is about as fake as one can get. loses are way to high.

#1: the Soviet navy sucked badly. I have used harpoon to wargame it all out they lasted less then 2 months

#2:available NATO Tank and AFV. 512 M-1's a year from one 1 plant, 1 shift in 1990. I'd see that tripling in times of war. probably soon after the start of the war in china. also if the Detroit tank plant was retooled that's another 1500-1600 tanks a year. I see NATO/US as having far more tanks/AFV's then in "canon" and the Soviet/ WP having more men and less tanks/AFV's.

#3:GDW's numbers on loses are far to high. as a 19k myself I know. I've been hit by all kinda of things (T-72's at point blank range, ATGW, RPG's, ect) and know an M-1 is very hard to kill. also tanks can get "knocked out" many times and be repaired in the field with minim spares.

as for fuel M-1's can run on anything that burns. one of our joke was we could get drunk and piss in the fuel tank. LOL

#4: nukes, GDW does not take in to account the fact that a large number of then would be shot down. and most where targeted at units in the field. a 20KT warhead would be lucky to kill a tank battalion.

last I'd like to thank Chico and the DC working group for the fine work they have done. I don't agree with it all but it's far better then "canon"

[Targan]

#4: nukes, GDW does not take in to account the fact that a large number of then would be shot down. and most where targeted at units in the field. a 20KT warhead would be lucky to kill a tank battalion.

Indeed Tell me more.

[stilleto69]

Targan:
Relax, nobody is saying that you didn't like the DC Working Group's efforts. Remember what LAW used to say to everyone "Use it if want to, or just ignore it if it didn't fit into your game".

Chico:
Just keep pumping out all your & the DC Working Group's wonderful work.

Leg & Targan:
I view canon's excuse for "last major fleet in being", "US Navy ceases to exists", "US Civilian Government ceases to exist", etc. with the exact same grain of salt as they in Star Trek "The Enterprise is the only ship in the Quadrant", "The Enterprise is the only ship in interception range", etc. Take it for what it's worth.
I think it was just GDW's way of limiting the PC's options i.e. no calling for air support or an immediate extraction from a hot AO. Just the same way as Operation Omega made the PC's get rid of all their precious war gains, i.e. that T-80 tank they salvaged, or that SCUD-B they "happened" across, etc.

[Dog 6]

Indeed Tell me more.

Well lets see where should I start I guess I'll start at the "shot down" part

all of NATO/US troops had by 1996 irl Patriot missile's and software upgrades to IHAWK to allow them to shoot down incoming warheads, with the IHAWK it would be a very close call. you only had at the most 30 seconds of engagement time.

as for the 20KT bomb on a tank battalion, well there is a lot to say, so I'll only cover some of the basics. a very good depiction of a 20 KT bomb on a tank unit can be found in the book "Vortex" by Larry bond just keep in mind that unit was not ready for NBC warfare. FM 3-4,FM 3-6,FM 3-7,FM 3-14 and a host of others can enlighten. after the 1st day of nukes popping off all army's in the world know to increase spacing by 4-5 times,( eg; tanks 200m apart are now 800-1000m apart) the kill zone/blast radius for tank/afv's is small on even 500kt bombs. ( a few square miles) this should help: http://www.nukefix.org/weapon.html

that's all I can think of off the top of my head. hope it helps.

[fightingflamingo]

I don't think it's our intention to radically alter "canon", if we did we'd not have the 49th Armored Division in the US post-TDM. We really want to point a way to the future regarding the recovery plan. One way others may use of recovery plan is that it was the plan (and may be partially or poorly implemented, consequently ineffective) thus making it adaptable to many differing views of the US post 2001.

Regarding Wargaming the Twilight War, it is our intention to follow the general thrust of the war laid out by GDW. What we want to do is develop more comprehensive campaign histories for units, (all units, of all combatant nationalities). While there is potential that the wargaming will give us combat results which could serverely alter the the histories of key combat units outlined in "canon", we reserve the right to employ a "factor of fudge" to avoid a two radical deviation from GDW's original vision (we do retain our own internally inconsistant view of what defines "radical"). We just feel that having one paragraph to state the war history for a division is too vague.

[Legbreaker]

Well i think its time for me to sound off. as a combat vet GDW's "canon" is about as fake as one can get. loses are way to high.

Of course it's fake, it's a GAME!

The T2K world is the way it is because otherwise the premise simply wouldn't work. The game was written in the 80's back when the cold war was still running strong and the Red Devil was still seen as a serious threat. You only need to take a look at some of the books written in the period, even as late as 1989-90 and you can see the pesimistic attitude even some "official" commentators had about the outcome of a NATO-PACT war.

Since then much more accurate information has come to light on the true status of the communist nations, HOWEVER, we must approach T2K from the cold war perspective, otherwise Twilight:2000 simply couldn't work as a setting.

Therefore, it really doesn't matter what the true result might have been should the east and west face off. We must work with what's been presented and expand on it. How it came to be is of only minor importance.

[kato13]

Well lets see where should I start I guess I'll start at the "shot down" part

all of NATO/US troops had by 1996 irl Patriot missile's and software upgrades to IHAWK to allow them to shoot down incoming warheads, with the IHAWK it would be a very close call. you only had at the most 30 seconds of engagement time.

as for the 20KT bomb on a tank battalion, well there is a lot to say, so I'll only cover some of the basics. a very good depiction of a 20 KT bomb on a tank unit can be found in the book "Vortex" by Larry bond just keep in mind that unit was not ready for NBC warfare. FM 3-4,FM 3-6,FM 3-7,FM 3-14 and a host of others can enlighten. after the 1st day of nukes popping off all army's in the world know to increase spacing by 4-5 times,( eg; tanks 200m apart are now 800-1000m apart) the kill zone/blast radius for tank/afv's is small on even 500kt bombs. ( a few square miles) this should help: http://www.nukefix.org/weapon.html

that's all I can think of off the top of my head. hope it helps.

As far as these parts of canon (very successful tac nukes and entire units getting destroyed) I can go with them and understand it the DC group does as well. These things are certainly in a 10% likelihood area. Units could have been caught in a marshaling area and the Sovs could have come up with some creative jamming for example. This would be the first tactical use of nukes and I am sure the next generation Field Manuals would have even better recommendations as it really is a new type of warfare. Again I feel the US would have probably done better than the Sovs in catching gathered units (due to things like J-Stars), but if Canon or the DC group keeps things even I can consider that plausible.

All the ships being destroyed however is hard for me to put in that 10% area of likelihood. That really is the problem the DC group has, balancing realism and canon. I want them to keep close to canon but if too many things fall out of the 10% likelihood I accept them tweaking things towards realism. If the Mexican invasion is radically changed to make it more likely to be successful I'm ok with that. No (or a significantly modified) Division Cuba also makes sense. The Alaskan invasion being more of a disaster for the sovs. 60 ships instead of 9. All of these things IMO are within the realm of the plausible rather than canon which while technically within the realm of the possible are difficult to resolve with real world facts.

A while back I had a two hour phone conversation with LAW. He discussed laboring over over how to kill off as many ships as he considered plausible. Always erring in the direction of canon. At a minimum I think we can agree that some US Boomers (which at the time had never been successfully tracked by the USSR) would have in all likelihood survived.

Just as with anything in the game if you don't like the details change them. We all have been doing that since we began gaming.

[Fusilier]

Of course it's fake, it's a GAME!

The T2K world is the way it is because otherwise the premise simply wouldn't work. The game was written in the 80's back when the cold war was still running strong and the Red Devil was still seen as a serious threat. You only need to take a look at some of the books written in the period, even as late as 1989-90 and you can see the pesimistic attitude even some "official" commentators had about the outcome of a NATO-PACT war.

Since then much more accurate information has come to light on the true status of the communist nations, HOWEVER, we must approach T2K from the cold war perspective, otherwise Twilight:2000 simply couldn't work as a setting.

Therefore, it really doesn't matter what the true result might have been should the east and west face off. We must work with what's been presented and expand on it. How it came to be is of only minor importance.

I'm Fusilier and I endorse this comment.

[Canadian Army]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker
Of course it's fake, it's a GAME!

The T2K world is the way it is because otherwise the premise simply wouldn't work. The game was written in the 80's back when the cold war was still running strong and the Red Devil was still seen as a serious threat. You only need to take a look at some of the books written in the period, even as late as 1989-90 and you can see the pesimistic attitude even some "official" commentators had about the outcome of a NATO-PACT war.

Since then much more accurate information has come to light on the true status of the communist nations, HOWEVER, we must approach T2K from the cold war perspective, otherwise Twilight:2000 simply couldn't work as a setting.

Therefore, it really doesn't matter what the true result might have been should the east and west face off. We must work with what's been presented and expand on it. How it came to be is of only minor importance.

I'm Canadian Army and I endorse this comment.

[kato13]

We must work with what's been presented and expand on it.

(emphases added)

You guys feel we "must" do this. Sorry but that seems a little closed minded. I have always defended any changes people wanted to make to their games. Be is extraterrestrial healing entities, vampires, zombies, higher levels of technology or anything else for that matter.

[Legbreaker]

I stand by the statement. Any work which purports to be canonical should not ignore in part or in full anything already written and published.

HOWEVER, I've got absolutely nothing against individuals or groups who choose to alter and/or throw away canon for their own reasons, provided they don't try to pass it off as canon.

This is the core of my statements and disagreements. The real world differs in many significant ways to canon, but that's the real world. Individual players and GMs have differing takes on the world, but again, that's their interpretation, their creation. It is not canon and cannot be passed off as the "real" Twilight:2000 world.

Those views, like T2K itself has become, are an alternate reality. In many ways they are similar, but change too much and it completely changes the balance of power. Change too much and it's no longer T2K but something entirely different.

[chico20854]

Don't worry folks, there will be no more publication forthcoming from me on this or possibly any other topic for a while. So you can discuss canon all you like...

[Jason Weiser]

Ya know what,
I am damn ashamed of the conduct of SOME on this board. Chico's out there, writing his arse off. The work he puts in is damned good and frankly, addresses some issues GDW couldn't when they wrote the game in 1984. I think had GDW done a 3rd ed, they would have gone the route of the DC working group.

Know what I am calling some of you out. Leg especially. Don't like what we do MAN UP AND WRITE SOMETHING YOURSELF! PUT IT OUT THERE FOR OTHERS TO CRITIQUE FOR NO MONEY AND NO RECOGNITION OUTSIDE OF A SMALL GROUP OF LIKE MINDED FANS!

I don't blame Chico for walking away. I am just pissed some of you idjits pushed him to it. Now, either man up and write something, and recognize something: THERE's NOTHING MORE BEING PUBLISHED FOR Twilight 2000 PROPER! 2013 is the new incarnation and it's going in a new direction. So, if you wanna be a canon nazi, the do so, but realize, you're gonna be one lonely cuss.

And as for the GAME comment: Since when the hell does my having fun impact yours here Don't wanna play it, don't use it, but to run down a guy like Chico for having the balls to do this To get us together over three years, one of us being deployed downrange and a host of other issues is nothing short of remarkable.

Kato, I humbly throw myself on the mercy of the court if you feel I broke any rules here, but those of you who have hounded Chico Expect nothing but my contempt.

[Targan]

Don't worry folks, there will be no more publication forthcoming from me on this or possibly any other topic for a while. So you can discuss canon all you like...

Wow, I hope you change your mind. I love your work. I was only trying to provide a bit of constructive criticism on one area, I didn't mean to cause offence.

[Targan]

Kato, I humbly throw myself on the mercy of the court if you feel I broke any rules here, but those of you who have hounded Chico Expect nothing but my contempt.

Aww c'mon man, nobody was hounding Chico. Lets everyone just chill out a bit okay