Ammonia!

[M-Type]

For instance, there are none in New England

I don't know a lot about the subject honestly, but we got this here in good 'ol Massachusetts. My friend's dad works there. With some alt-history twisting, you could work something out I'm sure.

But, as mentioned, I don't know much about the subject, so I don't know if it'd help at all.

[Graebarde]

Very interesting indeed. I had not thought of ammonia production as such, much less as a fuel. I will definately have to do more reading on this.

A couple of comments I have on this subject. First on urine which IS high in ammonia. It has been used for millenia in the tanning industry. Urine would have to be collected seperate from fecal matter. In sewage it's all run together of course. Running the sewage through a methane digester removes methane for use as fuel, leaving a nitrogen rich sludge that can be used for fertilizer. Now, in current plants the sludge is often contaminated with heavy metals, however on a smaller scale where industrial waste is not fed into the sewage system I think this problem would be mininmal. To my thinking this is a better use for the urine than a straight application which is a 'hot' mix and could 'burn' crops.. the same to be said for anhydrous ammonia.

The second comment has to do with the 'confinement' hog and poultry industry as well as the large confinement dairy operations. Come the day of destruction, when power is lost, those plants, and they are more plants than farms no matter what might be thought, they will implode. Feeding, ventalation, water, and cleaning of those places is based on ELECTRICITY. (Cleaning perhaps not so much.) With non-family labor on most of the places, labor fails to show up... management perhaps is not the owner, fails to show up... hence the place shuts down.. within a week animals are dying, which causes a problem.. You think they smell NOW.. imagine 1000 dead hogs decomposing. or 100000 chickens or turkeys.. There will be a massive waste of edible resources with the modern mega agriplants acoss the food belt. Sure some will be salvaged by those with something on the ball. IF they can react in time to 'farm out' the livestock to small holdings. But there is still the matter of foodstock for the animals. Much of the foodstock is human edible and will work it's way directly to people than the critters.

As a souce of fetilizer however the agriplants are abundant in that catagory. In tune with the methane digester, there are hog operations and dairies that have their own digesters to run generators. Common sense and helps with the waste disposal problems. But they are far and few between.

Anyways, my two cents of rambling.
Grae

[Webstral]

There are several nuke plants operating in New England at the time of the Exchange. EMP damages the electronics managing the reactors. Emergency shutdowns go into effect. By the time the dust clears, qualified personnel are hard to find. In places that suffer the most from the breakdown in order, like New England, qualified personnel are extremely hard to find. Specialized parts and equipment also are hard to come by from 1998 onward. Where there are multiple nuke plants and/or where civil disorder is relatively light, it may be possible to consolidate personnel and fabricate replacement equipment. Thus Colorado has a functioning nuke plant. New England got hammered by the breakdown in social order. Im an optimist, and I only have 30% of the pre-war population of about 12 million still living. Howling Wilderness puts that number even lower (one has to infer).

Referring to my own work (as always), one of the plot twists I have considered for Poseidons Rifles is the idea that a number of nuke plant engineers and technicians from Vermont Yankee are alive and well in southern Vermont. With them, First District (USCG) probably could restart Maine Yankee in Wiscasset. Unfortunately for First District, the engineers in question are residing in the United Communities of Southern Vermont (UCSV), which is under the protection of the Black Watch. The Black Watch is a group of pre-Exchange survivalists who hold grudges. They have a grudge with the 43rd MP Brigade, the State of Vermont, the State of New Hampshire, and Milgov. There are some folks in upstate New York they dont like much, either. They actually like the United Brotherhood of Fishermen, who infrequently but regularly come up the Connecticut River to trade fish and manufactured goods for greenhouse products, maple sugar, and cottage crafts produced in the UCSV. The odds that the Black Watch would cooperate with First District, whom they would consider agents of Milgov, are long. PCs could have an interesting time getting the required personnel from southern Vermont to coastal Maine.

If First District could bring the 900 MW Maine Yankee reactor back online at even 20% capacity (180 MW), it would be a game changer. Fertilizers and fuel could flow out of First District in considerable quantities. It might be enough to change the relationship between First District and Milgov. Nitrates for ammunition also would be an important product.

Of course, none of the above is canon.

[Webstral]

I'm now thinking that fertilizers will be a secondary consideration for anyone who can make ammonia and does not have access to fossil fuels. The ability to transport troops and move AFV will be so important that the farmers might have to go without. Ive been doing a little research on geothermal power and the synthesis of ammonia using electrolysis of water for hydrogen. Without getting too much into the details of converting MW into gallons of ammonia, a decent-sized geothermal plant like many of the plants in California and Nevada devoted entirely to ammonia production (at the expense of all of all other uses for electricity) can produce enough ammonia for fuel in a month to keep a modest fleet of trucks or a very modest fleet of AFV supplied. Ill be happy to post my back-of-the-envelope calculations if anyone is interested. Otherwise, Im definitely veering away from ammonia for fertilizers and towards ammonia for fuel.

Going a little further with my energy budget for SAMAD, energy from renewable sources like solar and wind needs to be stored in order to provide consistency. This is one of the biggest headaches in mainstreaming solar and wind. Im now leaning towards dedicating all of the power from these sources to water electrolysis. The energy then gets stored in hydrogen and oxygen and can be inserted into an ammonia synthesis system whenever a batch is large enough.

This leads me to a modest but important re-write for Thunder Empire. In the interests of cutting back the reliance of the military on fossil fuels and bringing greater economy to military bases, the Pentagon in 1995 sets aside some money for geothermal. As real life fortune would have it, the San Pedro River Valley is a promising location for geothermal using technology available in the 1990s. There is a well in the Huachucas that yields ground water >50 degrees Celsius. Following the thesis that momentum is real phenomenon in military politics, Fort Huachuca wrangles herself a modest geothermal plant that gets put down on unoccupied land separated from the main post by Highway 82. The rationale is that instead of buying electricity at commercial rates from Sulphur Springs, the post purchases electricity from the geothermal plant at a preferential rate similar to the scheme by which California photovoltaic array owners sell electricity during the day at day rates (good for the seller) and buy electricity during the night at night rates (good for the buyer). As an added bonus from a contingency standpoint, the geothermal plant is invulnerable to disruptions in the flow of fossil fuels. After the nukes strike, and after the damage to the electronics at the geothermal plant is repaired, someone at the University of Tucson observes that ammonia can be produced from electricity. It takes until late 1998 for an ammonia synthesis facility to be brought on-line near the geothermal plant, which is just about the time when the last conventional fuel for military uses is consumed.

Managing this grid will take a bit of work. However, if the solar and wind systems are only connected to an electrolysis facility, then the energy is converted to hydrogen as it becomes available. Machinery and other functions that require power all day long will draw their power from the geothermal plant, leaving a few MW for ammonia production. This is another reason why the Samadi dont project lots of power beyond SAMAD; the fuel just isnt there.

[pmulcahy11b]

I've always thought that the "suitcase nuke" scenario was an excellent way of taking a particularly choice piece of real estate away from PC's.


Mike

Barring any super secret black programs, there are no real "suitcase" nukes. There are nukes designed to be humped, but they look like a shrunken 55-gallon drum (like maybe a 30-gallon drum) and weigh about 70 pounds. Might get it in a steamer trunk, but not a suitcase.

[TrailerParkJawa]

One problem with nuclear power plants has been highlighted by Fukishima. Lose total power for x amount of hours and it's meltdown city. If there was an EMP that cripple almost everything then many reactors around the US should have meltdown cause there was not enough time to cool them down or any way to get sufficient supplies of diesel to everylant for extended periods.

However it would seem reasonable that some plants were offline for maintenance or just as a precaution against such an event. So those plants possibl would be available to crank up for recovery.

As for ammonia I never gave it much thought. Just having fuel to run irrigation or tractors would be a god send compared to oxen and hand planting.

Wouldn't ammonia come in handy for some explosives

[TrailerParkJawa]

Barring any super secret black programs, there are no real "suitcase" nukes. There are nukes designed to be humped, but they look like a shrunken 55-gallon drum (like maybe a 30-gallon drum) and weigh about 70 pounds. Might get it in a steamer trunk, but not a suitcase.

Yeah, ADMs weren't suitcase portable. Handtruck yes, pickup yes, gym bag no.

Davy Crockett rounds were pretty small to but I wouldn't be able to backpack that eithe

[Webstral]

Wouldn't ammonia come in handy for some explosives

It sure would. There's another competitor for a scarce resource. If you have ammonia for creating nitrates, you have the right stuff for making things that go bang. This would be a tremendous resource for anyone with the ability to produce anhydrous ammonia to trade to those without. One wonders at what exchange rate small arms ammunition (does smokeless powder require nitrates), machine gun ammunition, and mortar rounds could be traded for food, even if the other party were a modest cantonment with 85% of its labor devoted to growing or acquiring food.

[manunancy]

As far as I know the most convenient nitration source for making explosives is nitric acid - if you can cook some, nitrocellulose is a quick and relatively easy step.

[Targan]

Yeah, ADMs weren't suitcase portable. Handtruck yes, pickup yes, gym bag no.

Davy Crockett rounds were pretty small to but I wouldn't be able to backpack that either

The weapon the PCs recovered and later detonated in my last campaign was basically a slightly modernised M159 Mod 2 SADM (Special Atomic Demolition Munition); weighs 74.1kg with battery (any PRC type manpack battery will suffice); variable yield 1kt to 10kt; mechanical combination lock + PAL.

[mikeo80]

Barring any super secret black programs, there are no real "suitcase" nukes. There are nukes designed to be humped, but they look like a shrunken 55-gallon drum (like maybe a 30-gallon drum) and weigh about 70 pounds. Might get it in a steamer trunk, but not a suitcase.

You are correct, Paul. I was thinking about the nukes used in the tv show Jericho. That is the size you describe. I was using the "nom de guerre" given to small tac nukes.

My $0.02

Mike

[DocSavage45B10]

Fukishima specifically happened because the backup diesels were swept away or flooded out by a tsunami that was over the maximum planned height. Any plant whose diesels survive the exchange will be able to shutdown gracefuly assuming the operators do not panic.

One problem with nuclear power plants has been highlighted by Fukishima. Lose total power for x amount of hours and it's meltdown city. If there was an EMP that cripple almost everything then many reactors around the US should have meltdown cause there was not enough time to cool them down or any way to get sufficient supplies of diesel to everylant for extended periods.

However it would seem reasonable that some plants were offline for maintenance or just as a precaution against such an event. So those plants possibl would be available to crank up for recovery.

As for ammonia I never gave it much thought. Just having fuel to run irrigation or tractors would be a god send compared to oxen and hand planting.

Wouldn't ammonia come in handy for some explosives

[Legbreaker]

And I believe basic diesels don't need any electrical systems to keep running so shouldn't be greatly effected by EMP (provided they don't have an electrical starter).
But then I'm no mechanic, so....

[Graebarde]

As for ammonia I never gave it much thought. Just having fuel to run irrigation or tractors would be a god send compared to oxen and hand planting.

Muscle powered agriculture will NOT be oxen or horses in general for at least FOUR years after the demise of the tractor. It takes that long to get an ox or horse mature enough and trained to do real work. IF you try too young, and the pleasure horse people are really bad about this, they have not developed their skeletal or muscles to handle the loads and you will either kill or maime them, and your back to YOUR muscles again. As for heavy horses, while their number and popularity are on the rise, their number nationally is very low. I fear most animals on farms would wind up as burgers for the ignorant starving mass of locust from the cities, as will seed grains etc..

But that is a different thread.

[Graebarde]

And I believe basic diesels don't need any electrical systems to keep running so shouldn't be greatly effected by EMP (provided they don't have an electrical starter).
But then I'm no mechanic, so....

Correct, but the modern diesels have electronic controlled injection system. IF you have a mechanical pumped engine it will run without electric. NOW the question is would EMP effect a battery Or an electric motor (starter) that was not in operation when the EMP occured You're REALLY going to have a problem getting diesel engines going without an electric starter. Gas engines were hand cranked relatively easy. SOME diesel engines CAN be hand started, but they are stationary with large flywheels (such as those Lister engines). NOW IF you have a long slope to park the tractor on before you shut it down, and do a good prestart prep (ie prime etc) you MIGHT roll it down and pop the clutch.. oops, most diesel tractors I've seen around lately have a form of automatic transmission system.. so that MIGHT not work either. Heck depending on the weather, the standard transmission diesel is not a sure thing. We've done it, but it sure isn't fun, then we've had to pull the dang thing around for five minutes trying to get it to fire up when it was cold and batteries were dead (farm tractor pulling other farm tractor)