Alcohol powered Jets

[Panther Al]

Yes, evidently you can make jet fuel out of cellulose products...

http://www.strategypage.com/military...705202736.aspx

[Cdnwolf]

Hmmm now can it be used in helicopters

[Webstral]

Mike Foxtrot! So there's a chance that a major disruption in the flow of petroleum won't destroy us.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I'm not going to say I'd allow such a thing in T2k but Lord knows it's a super cool idea.

I mean you still (no pun intended) have to make the stuff and get it to aircraft. Aircraft engines require other lubricants that you can't make out of CHOOH, etc.

But again it's very neat.

[Legbreaker]

I'm not going to say I'd allow such a thing in T2k but Lord knows it's a super cool idea.

I agree, very cool. For me though it's a timeline thing - it's still just in the experimental stage in 2012, unlikely to see action in T2K.

[stg58fal]

I'm not going to say I'd allow such a thing in T2k but Lord knows it's a super cool idea.

I mean you still (no pun intended) have to make the stuff and get it to aircraft. Aircraft engines require other lubricants that you can't make out of CHOOH, etc.

But again it's very neat.

True, but IIRC, according to both the v1 and v2/2.2 timelines, there's a trickle of petroleum still coming out and being refined. I don't remember the exact quote, or which book its in, but it says something to the effect of 'theres need for lubricants is great enough that no one can afford to actually BURN any of the oil being pumped and refined'.

To me this seems like saying that there is some supply of new-production, petroleum-based lubricants to be had. Expensive and hard to find, yes, without a doubt, but they're there.

One thing I've wondered about for years, both in terms of T2k and IRL, is why is it that the Germans were making synthetic oil for the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe toward the tail end of WWII (admittedly, not in anything even close to the quantity needed, but still....), but after the war (WWII) no one seemed to ever want to do so again In game, just making a couple barrels of motor oil, grease, etc., every week would make someone very, very rich. By T2k standards, anyway.

Maybe there's an adventure idea....some German chemist has been making synthetic crude oil/diesel/motor oil, what-have-you, and selling small quantities to support himself and further his research into improving the process. But now the word is out, and everyone wants him to come work for them. And some of the 'prospective employers' don't intend to ask nicely or offer a generous compensation package...

[raketenjagdpanzer]

True, but IIRC, according to both the v1 and v2/2.2 timelines, there's a trickle of petroleum still coming out and being refined. I don't remember the exact quote, or which book its in, but it says something to the effect of 'theres need for lubricants is great enough that no one can afford to actually BURN any of the oil being pumped and refined'.

I'm not sure which the RDF Sourcebook covers but I think it's 1.0 (or 2.0 at the latest) but there's quite a few a/c flying in the mideast - but then, they're right at the source so "wasting" production on JP5 isn't that big a deal out there.

But that aside, yes, you're right...the POL is focusing heavily on the "OL" part for the time being.

To me this seems like saying that there is some supply of new-production, petroleum-based lubricants to be had. Expensive and hard to find, yes, without a doubt, but they're there.

Agreed!

One thing I've wondered about for years, both in terms of T2k and IRL, is why is it that the Germans were making synthetic oil for the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe toward the tail end of WWII (admittedly, not in anything even close to the quantity needed, but still....), but after the war (WWII) no one seemed to ever want to do so again In game, just making a couple barrels of motor oil, grease, etc., every week would make someone very, very rich. By T2k standards, anyway.

In reverse order, I agree with you entirely and it's probably because in 1946 onward until the late 1960s petroleum was pennies on the barrel (as it were).

Maybe there's an adventure idea....some German chemist has been making synthetic crude oil/diesel/motor oil, what-have-you, and selling small quantities to support himself and further his research into improving the process. But now the word is out, and everyone wants him to come work for them. And some of the 'prospective employers' don't intend to ask nicely or offer a generous compensation package...

...maybe on the side he's invented this "AvGas Alcohol" and could get the few flyable a/c Europe-side airborne again...

[Webstral]

Synthetic oil has an unfavorable ratio of energy in to energy out compared to conventional oil. As oil supplies dwindle in the real world, the market may become more favorable for synthetic oil. For now, though, the real reason to use synthetic oil is that you have coal but not enough oil to meet your needs.

[Legbreaker]

There's a number of references in the books to old oil being "reconditioned" by straining and letting it settle for a while. This reconditioned oil is shown in one example as giving a reduction in the number of hours per week required for maintenance of a vehicle for about a month.

Much of the lubricants in Europe has probably been recycled numerous times, disabled/destroyed vehicles drained and every last drop carefully hoarded. It's probably in an opponents best interest to disable rather than go for outright destruction, simply to scavenge the lubricants for themselves.

Down in the Middle East and over in Romania the situation is likely quite different, although my guess is the old lubricants are added to the crude and reprocessed. Every drop is valuable....

[Cdnwolf]

Goodbye Operation Reset, Hello Operation Paper Plane ....

[Olefin]

If you look you still have oil production going on in the Middle East per the RDF as was stated earlier (enough that there is some left to be exported but not much) that can support not only a very decent sized US and Soviet air presence there but also a French one - one that is big enough that even by mid 2001 (Kings Ransom) there are still lots of air units and air activity going on.

Ditto in Med Cruise - there are still Soviet Air units operating in Romania because of Ploesti.

You also have the refinery working in Kenya per Frank Frey (his unfinished module Lions in Twilight) as well as refineries and oil fields producing still in the US (Howling Wilderness and mentioned in the basic game guide - i.e. 60% of US refining and production capability is gone, which leaves approxiamately 40% still available but not necessarily in production) or ones that can be put back into production (Red Star, Lone Star)

Add in whats left in Australia, Argentina, etc.. and you have a lot of oil left still considering how few operational aircraft and tanks there still are compared to 1996. Its not yet Mad Max where there is almost nothing left. The real problem is getting it where its needed and getting spare parts made to keep the refineries you have left still going.

and that is mentioned in the RDF - i.e. the number of ships that can transport oil has been reduced significantly - and in Howling Wilderness - i.e. the reduced production cited at at least one US refinery still working


Oh by the way - the Japanese were using alternative fuels to operate prop planes at the end of WWII when their oil was getting cut off - there was a reduction in performance and range - but they could still operate as combat aircraft

I am not sure if any of the people who wrote the GDW modules were engineers or had a technical background - but their assertion that you cant fly aircraft except with avgas wasnt technically correct. You can do it - but most likely at a penalty versus the kind of performance you got from avgas or jet fuel i.e. you wont get the combat radius, speed and payload you would get with regular aircraft fuels.

So can you get that old P-51 off the ground with alternative fuels - sure but probably not with anything like a full weapons load or range or speed. Still its better than nothing.

[Olefin]

Just some info on fuel for everyone's info - by the way reciprocating engines are supposed to get avgas only

this info is from

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/systems/engines-fuel.htm

Aviation Gasoline (AVGAS) has been better known for its flammability than for its significant toxicity. Exposure may occur during handling, storage, or engine maintenance. JP4 and JP5 are jet engine fuels. JP4 is 65 percent kerosene and 35 percent gasoline, while JP5 is kerosene. AVGAS is used to power piston engines, while jet fuel is used to to power jet engines.

Aircraft fuels may be classified under 4 general types:

■Aviation Gasoline [AVGAS] is a petroleum distillate with an approximate boiling range of 35�-165�C (95�-330�F). Gasoline type fuels are not used to any large extent in aircraft turbojet and turboprop engines because of poor lubricating properties as compared to kerosene type fuels and because of lead additives which have an adverse effect on aircraft turbine engines.
■Wide Cut Type (JP 4 and Jet B) fuels are mixtures of gasoline and kerosene distillate fractions with an approximate boiling range of 35�-315�C (95�-600�F). These jet fuels are called wide-cut because the kerosene is cut with gasoline. They are also called wide-range, because of the wide range of boiling temperatures. These distillate-type turbine fuels originated in the USA where readily available gasoline fractions were used to supplement the basic kerosene type of fuel.
■Kerosene Type (JP 8, Jet A 1, and Jet A) fuels are petroleum distillates with an approximate boiling range of 165�-290�C (330�-550�F). In Europe, gasoline was less available after World War II, so these kerosene-based jet fuels prevailed.
■High Flash Point Kerosene (JP 5) fuel has essentially the same characteristics as the kerosene type fuels, but with a minimum flash point of 60�C (140�F). This higher flash point fuel is used to some extent in Presidential Fleet aircraft and is required by the Navy for fire safety purposes aboard aircraft carriers.

All 4 types may be utilized in turbojet and turboprop engines with certain restrictions. Only aviation gasoline, because of its high volatility and minimum octane requirements, is suitable for use in reciprocating engines.

Aircraft using a lower than specified grade of AVGAS must be operated In Accordance With (IAW) the power schedule or operating limits as indicated in applicable flight manuals. Engines using a higher than specified grade of fuel may develop spark plug fouling and require increased maintenance. Refer to flight manuals for spark plug anti fouling procedures. Mixing different grades of AVGAS in aircraft tanks is permitted when necessary. The aircraft must be operated TAW limits established for the lower grade. Commercial Grade 100 (dyed green) or 100LL (low lead, dyed blue) may be used as an alternate when Grade 100/130 (dyed blue) is authorized .

By the way the Air Force has authorized the use of aviation fuel made from the FT process for use in US military aircraft and in the T2000 world there are operational plants using that process in South Africa. The Air Force is looking at a 50/50 blend of FT to regular JP fuels but a pure FT synthetic jet fuel is possible. Its not alcohol but instead of petroleum it would be coal or natural gas based for the FT process.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Good stuff, Olefin. Thanks for the info.

I really, really want to incorporate this into a maybe-someday T2k game...

[pmulcahy11b]

And don't forget the JP12 they made for use in the SR-71 (the SR-71 is the only plane that used it). Designed (along with the engines of the SR-71) to be very fuel efficient, to combust in very thin air once the engines were already started at a lower altitude -- and yet, you could throw a gas can full of flaming sterno into a tank of JP12 and the JP12 wouldn't burn.

[Grimace]

Yeah, they can fly with it, but for how long 30 minutes before it burns through the fuel

And how much work needs to be done on the engine to clean it AFTER it makes a flight