Equipment for a Unified Germany

[headquarters]

willkommen

Hi there, everybody!

I did find this forum on this evening. So, if I am a little late with my answer, that tells you why.

One thing about the uniforms: The rain-drop-patterns, that are/were used by the Czecheslovak and Polish forces are not distuingishable from the East-German uniform, at least in the middle of a fierce firefight! Therefore it would have been complete menace, not to equip the "new" comrades with older style German uniforms! "Flecktarn" and the older "Steingrau-oliv" (Well, that's the official name of the OD uniform-color) are both possible.

I know, that in real life a lot of units were trained in using the AKs. These should not be kept as service rifle, but as they were there, the German conscripts received training with them.

All the rest has been said (Well, written, to be more precise!) before. Vehicles and such would have been kept, I'm certain about that.

I personally believe, that during the war, most soldiers of the Bundeswehr had getten rid of their G11 rifles - no chance to reload the cartridges! As soldiers tend to use equipment they are familiar with, most ex-East-Germans might have tried to get back "their" AK, whereas West-Germans would have tried to get a hand on one of the older G3 rifles.

Wow, my first ever posting in English ... that took it's time. Hope, I my use of the English language is not too bad. I'll do my best to increase my LNG (English) skills, promise

welcome to the forum.
good info .
Are there many T2K players or enthusiasts in Germany

[Legbreaker]

One important factor, at least in the initial stages of reunification, has to be time.
Although the generals, etc who were involved in the talks probably knew well in advance what was going on, the average soldiers, even the vast majority of the upper ranks would certainly have been kept in the dark right up until the last minute. Therefore, there would have been next to no opportunity for preplanning or even stockpiling of supplies of almost any sort to reequip the army of what was until then a seperate country.

Even training of the troops to NOT shoot their allies/former enemies would not have been possible and so the chances of units attacking each other out of confusion (especially since the Poles are reported to have been equipped with similar uniforms) would have to be exceptionally high.

Put another way, can an entire army be expected to reverse it's political outlook in the time between the anouncement of unification and movement east

Of course that assumes there was an announcement. From what I can see, there wasn't - according to the 1.0 timeline, West German units moved into East Germany and attacked Soviet forces on the 7th of October while East German units stayed in barracks. It wasn't until more than seven weeks later that the East German generals moved to take over the government and two days after that the East German army finally took the field.

Yes, that seven week period is a long time, but the way I read it, it wasn't until the end of Novemeber that the decision was finally made / action taken. In my mind there's no way the Communist civilian government would have used that time to prepare for integration with western forces but they may have ordered the production of pact supplies.

Perhaps the Generals delay was due to preparing the training plans, etc, but I doubt they'd have been able to initiate the programs before the coup as that would have tipped their hand and invited attack by the remaining pact units.

The 2.0/2.2 timeline is a LOT simplier with regard to reunification and integration - they had a few years to accomplish what was needed without the Soviets breathing down their backs.

[Mohoender]

One important factor, at least in the initial stages of reunification, has to be time.
Although the generals, etc who were involved in the talks probably knew well in advance what was going on, the average soldiers, even the vast majority of the upper ranks would certainly have been kept in the dark right up until the last minute. Therefore, there would have been next to no opportunity for preplanning or even stockpiling of supplies of almost any sort to reequip the army of what was until then a seperate country.

An interesting observation but what if it had come the other way around. Why not assuming that the small group of senior officers was backed by a large number of lower ranking officers (colonels and captains) Then, while the small group of generals were conducting talks with the west, the lower ranks officers would start to prepare the army for the coup while most high ranking officers and officials were left in the dark.

That would resemble the Portuguese revolution of 1974 where the captains move in support of General de Spinola. As for Portugal, this could have come through a political movement that had undermine the army for months (if not years). Of course there was the STASI (PIDE in Portugal) and these would be the ennemy. They might put up some strong resistance and some will with no doubt join with the Pact. However, as in Portugal, the STASI could have underestimated that movement.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Wow, my first ever posting in English ... that took it's time. Hope, I my use of the English language is not too bad. I'll do my best to increase my LNG (English) skills, promise

Welcome aboard! Don't worry about your language skills - you get by a lot better in English than I would in German

[Legbreaker]

An interesting observation but what if it had come the other way around. Why not assuming that the small group of senior officers was backed by a large number of lower ranking officers (colonels and captains) Then, while the small group of generals were conducting talks with the west, the lower ranks officers would start to prepare the army for the coup while most high ranking officers and officials were left in the dark.

For reasons of security if nothing else. The more people involved, the more likely somebody will talk to the wrong person and the whole game is up.
I think we can safely assume that word did not leak out before the West Germans moved across the border because if it had, the Soviets undoubtably would have moved against those involved.

The KGB at the time would have to have been very active and political officers surely would be integrated to very low levels thoughout the East German military. I can see the KGB perhaps under the guise of the East German government conducting a purge of all those involved in the talks, even just those rumoured to be involved.

No, I'm fairly confident only a relatively small group of officers with the power and authority to act would have been involved although I'm equally sure there'd have to be hundreds, if not thousands of the lower ranks at least sympathetic to the idea.

[Mohoender]

No, I'm fairly confident only a relatively small group of officers with the power and authority to act would have been involved although I'm equally sure there'd have to be hundreds, if not thousands of the lower ranks at least sympathetic to the idea.

That was the idea behind. In Portugal, the movement involved a small number of officers of course but it had touched (at a political level) thousands of junior officers who had join with Political meeting over the past years.

Of course, these officers and a large number of their soldiers where supporting the coup. As a result, they simply refused to move out of cantonment on the government order and the resistance was only put up by the PIDE. STASI could have been equally blind (actually they were when the wall fall down).

[B.T.]

Hi there everybody!

Thanks for your encouragement and this kind welcome!

I have to admit: I did not even think about the original timeline. I play Twilight 2.2 every now and then and own a copy of the 1st version, but I haven't looked to it in the last 15 years.

Off course, my infos make no sense in the original timeline.

The original timeline would not let enough time for a resupply. More likely, the East-German troops could have been outfitted with colored armbands or the like. But I think, a lot of East Germans (of the original timeline) would have deserted their new army and tried to fight alongside their old allies. There would have been no reason, why most of them should have made up their mind (and switched over to NATO) in such a short time!

Kind regards
B.T.

[pmulcahy11b]

I have to admit: I did not even think about the original timeline. I play Twilight 2.2 every now and then and own a copy of the 1st version, but I haven't looked to it in the last 15 years.

Off course, my infos make no sense in the original timeline.

The original timeline would not let enough time for a resupply. More likely, the East-German troops could have been outfitted with colored armbands or the like. But I think, a lot of East Germans (of the original timeline) would have deserted their new army and tried to fight alongside their old allies. There would have been no reason, why most of them should have made up their mind (and switched over to NATO) in such a short time!

Kind regards
B.T.

Well, IMHO, none of the timelines (including the new 3.0) make total sense -- 1.0's comes the closest, but it's outdated.

As far as wearing armbands or something: having taken a snap shot at someone who wasn't wearing the right shape of helmet (hit him in the face -- and it turned out to be the right thing), I really can't stress enough the need for allied troops to have some kind of recognizable uniform.

With the East and West Germans, it occurs to me that you might have a situation where some of the East German troops switched over to the NATO side, and others that fought with the Soviet/Warsaw Pact side. Lots of confusion for much of the war. Perhaps mass surrenders and desertions to both sides. Some East German troops might even go the partisan route if they couldn't find a "friendly" side to link up with.

[B.T.]

@ pmulcahy11b: You are definitely right. Wearing colored armbands is really not the best of ideas, but it's a question of alternatives.

Armbands have been used on the Eastern front in WWII in winterwar. Both sides used those bands. The last winter uniforms of the Wehrmacht had buttons on their arms, to fix the "color of the day".

In Panama 1989/90 parts of the Panamese Forces were equipped with US-style BDUs. Some of the US-forces therefore fixed white armbands or handkerchiefs to their arms.

Well, not really that effective, I suppose.

The shape of the NVA steelhelmet was/is so unique, that it cannot be mistaken. Recognizing an East German soldier would therefore be no problem!

[chico20854]

We (in the DC Working Group) thought that the difficulties of seriously implementing the v1 canon timeline were too severe and scrapped the whole idea of the NVA remaining in barracks for 7 weeks. In reality, the NVA would have been disarmed faster than you can say "JNA in Bosnia".

For our take on the situation, check out the following three pieces:

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeedox4/s...rstandings.doc for the political background on the East German entry into the war.

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeedox4/s...7th_guards.doc for how the NVA "engaged in friendly socialist co-operation against the revanchist Chinese"; and

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeedox4/s...ern_europe.doc discusses some of the difficulties faced in integrating the Volksmarine and the Kriegsmarine while the Polish Navy and Soviet Baltic Fleet are steaming westward.

[B.T.]

Hi there!

I've been doing some research-work on the internet and in various publications I have here at home. Again, the things I'm going to point out, refer to ver.2 and 2.2.

In real life the German forces had several weapons on trials in the 80ies and early 90ies. Somewere in the internet I found, that the G11 was intended as the firearm for combat units, support units - including artillery an such - should be equipped with the G41, a modification of the older G33. The newer G41 had a new magazin well to use the M16 mags.
The G36 was a newer development, I do not use it in t2k.

There have been other firearms that have since been issued on a small degree, espacially the G8/MG8 (= HK21). There is a photo of a member of the KSK (Kommando Spezial Kr$fte = roughly Command of specialized forces), where a HK21 can be seen. This firearm can be outfitted with a spare feed block (). It is possible to use G3 mags or belted ammo. As these have been fielded in realiy, I let them appear on very few occasions.

Bundesgrenzschutz (West German "Border Guards"), Zoll (Customs) and the various police agencies had used (and received training with) several other firearms, part of them have certainly been in some kind of stores. Among these were the G1 (= FN FAL) and various sniper rifles (HK and Steyr). Pistols included SigSauer, Walther, HK and some more.

It may be of some interest, that in the DDR a heavily modified version of the AK family came to life: the WIEGER family. In reality only about 1000 rifles were made for the Indian army. The action was copied from the AK, but it was for the NATO 5.56 ammo.

All of these weapons can be encountered in t2k, some not in vast numbers, but on occasions.

One last word on knifes an bayonets: Although the Bundeswehr never trained with bayonets, there are models existing for G3 and G41. I use them in the game, although this is not totally conform with reality. In the late 80ies, a knew Field or combat knife was planned. The German firm Eickhorn builds it (The ACK = Advanced Combat Knife, and, yes, that's the German name for it!) up to today. In reality it was not fielded, because of the collaps of the Eastern bloc. Some had been bought privatly and were used by German soldiers. As far as I'm informed, a version for the international market existed, being sold in the US by Colt. It was named "Colt Tactical Combat Knife". Like the AK- and M9-bayonets, knife and scabbard can be put to gether, to cut wires. The German model has a black blade and green plastic scabbard and handle, the Colt model comes in blach completely. The hole thing is isolated, to cut electrical wires.
I use this knife in my games as part of the personal equipment of most German soldiers.

Hope, this gives some new ideas!

[Raellus]

Thanks for the information, B.T. It's nice having a German perspective in a discussion about the German army. I thought the bit about the Border Guard and Police units was especially enlightening and useful.

Personally, I much prefer the v1.0 timeline, since that was the version I grew up with. I have added some newer gear to my campaign since there were several developments in weaponry and equipment between the mid '80s when the game came out and '96, when the Twilight War kicked off. That's why I allow the G-36. I figure it was just coming into service, the G-11 having been issued in limited numbers but having been cancelled due to political/economic considerations. However, in my Twilight world, the G-3 and HK-33 were still more common than either the G-36 or the G-11.

[Targan]

Personally, I much prefer the v1.0 timeline, since that was the version I grew up with. I have added some newer gear to my campaign since there were several developments in weaponry and equipment between the mid '80s when the game came out and '96, when the Twilight War kicked off. That's why I allow the G-36. I figure it was just coming into service, the G-11 having been issued in limited numbers but having been cancelled due to political/economic considerations. However, in my Twilight world, the G-3 and HK-33 were still more common than either the G-36 or the G-11.

Word for word that is how things are in my campaign too.

[natehale1971]

The quickest and simplist answer would have been, would be that the East German soldiers being given a lightweight flecktarn smock to wear over their uniforms to give them something of the West German uniform so they would be seen as 'friendly' forces during the heat of battle. That was something we had said happened in our campaign back on the Ike.

We had used the lull between the West German invasion and the East Germans joining in the battle was spent with the East Germans debating what they where going to do, and this would be when the evidence of how their best troops where used as cannon fodder by their Soviet 'allies' would have been shown to military and civilian alike.

It was during this period the West Germans would have provided the light-weight flektarn smocks to the East German units that had joined them in battle.

We had the East Germans keeping the NVA unit designations (such as Motor Rifle Division instead of Panzergrenadier) and deployed as their own formations resupplied by those forces trained on the same kinds of weapons and equipment that they would be using (such as the regional training commands described earlier on this thread).

[Abbott Shaull]

I'd go with the thought that uniforms are way easier to manufacture than weapons, and at least those would change over. Since the soldiers would need to be at least partly re-trained anyway, it would make it easy to keep them out of the line and re-equipped ASAP.
Why would they need re-training The jargon and doctrine has got to be way different, and the intel guys are going to want to debrief at least the officers and vet them for loyalty. I'm sort of surprised that they divisions weren't broken up and new, integrated, ones formed. Say, using the WG reserve brigades as cadre while the EG leaders are worked over.

Well at the time in v1 background, the Germans were fighting the Pact forces and needed everyone in the field regardless of their background. Now in real life this is basically what happen. With anyone the rank of Colonel or higher given their walking papers as they were debriefed.

The simple answer why the Division weren't broken up, is no matter what, these units had trained together. You don't want to totally alienated them, since most of the command structure I am sure during the opening hours/days was change for a variety of reason anyway, regardless if they were fighting the same enemy or not.