Turkey & Nuclear Weapons

[Webstral]

I cant remember if this has come up before, but while re-reading the v1 chronology I was struck yet again by the fact that the US really leaves the Turks hanging in the nuclear exchange. The whole point of joining NATO is to get under the US nuclear umbrella, right And yet the v1 chronology clearly states that a one-sided use of tactical nuclear weapons on the part of the Pact forces breaks the stalemate in Thrace. This is not a positive statement about the worthiness of the US as allies.

It looks like we also leave the Romanians in the lurch, too. There is no direct reference to a one-sided use of nuclear weapons, but the Romanian Army collapsed in part due to limited nuclear use. I cant say for certain that the US failed to provide any balancing strikes. However, we clearly left the Turks to hang on their own.

[Olefin]

That is one area where the canon did leave a hole - but I think the US eventually did hit them back. The way it reads after the strikes the Bulgarians had a wide open path into European Turkey - but then in 2000 according to the NATO book the Turks still have Istanbul. So what stopped the Bulgarians - most likely US nuke strikes that arent told in the canon. Possibly a line got dropped in editing the original story about how US nuke strikes stopped the Bulgarians and Greeks cold but by then the Turks had been hit so bad that any chance of them coming to the support again of the Romanians was finished

[Targan]

Boy did I misunderstand the title of this thread before I opened the first post. I was thinking "Wow, serious overkill, I'd just use a shotgun".

[HorseSoldier]

Even with US backing by the nuke exchange, Turkey's protection may have been limited by geography, with Italy and Greece now out. Books aren't handy, but the US Navy in the Med was badly chewed up by then. With an exchange in central Europe and the Middle East, Turkey may have been left in the breeze during the tactical weapon exchange, but back stopped when strategic weapons get employed.

[Matt Wiser]

Remember the nukes at Incirlik Those bombs were meant not only for the USAF, but also for the Turks under the dual-key system. At least one Turkish AF unit (F-16s in T2K, but they flew F-104s and F-100s earlier) was certified to carry the weapons. And until the Turks retired the Honest John in the mid '80s, there were warheads kept in U.S. custody to be released to the Turks if/when the time came.

There's a story/factfile on Chico's site about a USAF Tactical Missile Wing that was kicked out of Sicily when the Italians left NATO, and they wound up in Turkey instead. 487th TMW, if memory serves.

[Webstral]

So we have a choice between claiming that the v1 chronology has a gap regarding Turkey and the nuclear phase or finding and explanation for why nukes at Incirlik didnt get involved.

[pmulcahy11b]

Boy did I misunderstand the title of this thread before I opened the first post. I was thinking "Wow, serious overkill, I'd just use a shotgun".

+1!

[Olefin]

Frankly I think the authors missed the fact that the Turks had access to nukes. The whole situation in the Balkans isnt really handled that well in the timeline - for instance how did the CivGov forces get to Yugoslavia in the first place past not only MilGov but also the French patrols at Gibraltar, let alone the Italians and Greeks And considering the areas they hold where did they even get ships and fuel for such an operation (all they have on the East Coast really is the enclave in the Carolinas - so how did they get a NY NG unit shipped out from there)

You have the Turks getting nuked and the Bulgarians racing for Istanbul - and then the timeline goes silent. Whats funny is that you can tell the GDW writers themselves didnt know what to do with the Turks - because the NATO guides are full of "what the Turkish units did wasnt really known during the war" - i.e. they just sort of threw them in there and didnt know what to really do with them.

Sort of how Ploesti mysteriously doesnt get nuked out of existence when the US, who lost a lot of men bombing the place in WWII, would have made sure that the place was a huge molten crater for sure in real life. The Balkans are just sort of a big afterthought since their real focus was Poland in the initial releases and they probably never thought any player groups would head that way.

[WallShadow]

Boy did I misunderstand the title of this thread before I opened the first post. I was thinking "Wow, serious overkill, I'd just use a shotgun".

Uhh, couldn't we try the OVEN first

[bobcat]

oh come on we all know aiming tactical nukes at a turkey is the traditional way to celebrate thanksgiving.

and yeah the timeline does leave everyone outside poland kinda hanging.

[Legbreaker]

Frankly I think the authors missed the fact that the Turks had access to nukes.

Access doesn't mean ability to use. The US still controlled the codes, etc and may have deliberately withheld them because of the wider strategic/global situation.

[Olefin]

once the nukes started to fly I doubt the US would have hidden the codes still from the Turks

by the way there is one very likely explanation for why the Turkish nukes never got used- maybe they got taken out by the Soviets either with a conventional raid, a nuclear one or Special Forces before they hit the Turkish army itself with nukes

Could explain why the Turks couldnt respond - because they had nothing left to respond with

[Targan]

by the way there is one very likely explanation for why the Turkish nukes never got used- maybe they got taken out by the Soviets either with a conventional raid, a nuclear one or Special Forces before they hit the Turkish army itself with nukes

Could explain why the Turks couldnt respond - because they had nothing left to respond with

Does anyone know what the protocols are for US nukes stationed in foreign countries such as Turkey In times of war would all the warheads in such a country be kept in one place or dispersed

[Matt Wiser]

This is only a guess, but I'd bet that the warheads (artillery shells-the Honest John warheads would've been long gone-and gravity bombs) would remain in their storage areas-and none of them were in European Turkey. AF and Army personnel guarded the storage sites, and would release them only upon receiving the appropriate release orders. Once the warheads are released, they can be used. The relevant NATO air command was 6th Allied Tactical Air Force, and once the gravity bombs are released, 6th ATAF would designate the targets. Artillery shells, though, would be used probably by Corps Commanders (the likely warheads are the 8-inch AFAP rounds for the M-110 howitzer). Once the Turks asked for release of the bombs and artillery shells, it goes up the line to SACEUR, then the President, who has to consent to release American weapons. Once release is granted, it goes back down the chain of command.

The bombs at Incirlik-along with the GLCMs of the 487th TMW-would be used by the USAF, though.

[Olefin]

So an attack on the storage sites - which of course the KGB knew exactly where they were - could have taken out the nukes allocated to the Turks before they ever had a chance to get them out of the bunkers. Especially if they had compromised US or NATO communications and got a heads up for the release request and hit them before the President could respond.