Korea

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Been thinking about the Korean situation in T2k...

IMC, NK only exists as a rump state, shoved up against an impotent China. The USSR is in no position to resupply or in any way support North Korea and won't be for a long, long time.

South Korea has it's hands full trying to rebuild and deal with the millions of refugees. Harsh winters are on their way through the Korean peninsula, and the fewer mouths they have to feed, the better.

As most of the NK armor is now in the SK's hands, and most of the SK's armor is qualitatively vastly better than the NK's armor (the K1 is a quantum leap better than the T62 and T55s the NKs had), the Koreans have the situation as best in hand as possible.

So I'm thinking, how would a withdraw from the PacRim look

We'd discussed on the forum before the possibility that Tarawa was in the pacific in July of 2000 (I think, anyway) and given that the USN tended to treat the pacific as their own private lake anyway there may well be some naval forces left to form the core of an evac convoy. Given that the SK's probably don't want our armor, that as well as the people (probably 10000 or so) would come home. If the SK's have a floating auto transport, there's the armor. Plus I'd imagine they'd pick up troops from Japan for similar reasons.

just kind of blue-skying; thoughts

[Targan]

I'm in the "Tarawa in the Baltic" camp myself.

[Olefin]

the problem for a withdrawal may be a total lack of fuel for a large scale withdrawal. If you look at what Matt had in the fanzine he has the USN ships in Korea basically stuck there only capable of local ops because they lack the fuel to go home.

I am thinking that this may be where CENTCOM comes into play - i.e. that they use the fuel they have to be able to bring the US units that are in Korea not to the US but possibly to Iran where those ships, planes, tanks and men would give them enough combat power to push the Soviets out and win the war in the Middle East.

If you add it up you have 3000 Marines who have 20 M60A4's and 12,400 Army personnel with 4 M1's and 7 LAV-75's. Thats a heck of a reinforcement for CENTCOM. they could take the Army personnel and bring the 24th and 9th back up to strength and the two USMC divisions could defiintely use those 3000 men and 20 tanks.

Add in helos, aircraft, naval ships, USAF and USN personnel, etc.. and you have quite the reinforcement.

And their current transport lift could easily bring the Marines and their tanks there from Korea to CENTCOM as is and then go back for the Army. And I could see the French even helping out - i.e. they are helping CENTCOM logistically so they can fight the Soviets, Iraqis and Syrians instead of them - so bringing more personnel to strengthen the US is actually a good idea for them - especially if they extract a "we do this and you agree to more oil for France postwar" kind of deal.

[Legbreaker]

The Naval and Aviation book places the Tarawa in the North Atlantic in the Summer of 2000 I believe - it's mentioned in the colour plate for the Osprey.

Once China was nuked, we can see a number of Soviet Divisions redeployed into Korea where they remain in 2000. The whole Korean experience seems to be pretty much a replay of the 1950s all over again with a North Korean offensive, Southern counterattack bolstered by US (and other UN) forces, then an introduction of allied forces in support of the North (Soviets this time instead of China). By 2000 it's pretty much a stalemate again, just like in 1952-53.

Given the continued presence of the Soviets and the status quo, would the US really pull out all that quickly How would that action affect future relations with the South Would it damage potential trade

In my opinion, any withdrawal would only occur after a LOT of soul searching on the part of the US command structure. Even then, transportation resources would take time to gather (we know from Satellite Down there's not a lot of US military shipping in the region).

[Olefin]

The Soviets are in pretty bad shape in the Far East - and they have more than enough just to hold down what they have conquered in Manchuria. And the Satellite Down depiction of the USN having no presence on the West Coast is out and out wrong - sorry but no way that happens. Hit hard sure - nothing left at all and the USN is basically gone in the Pacific - about as realistic as saying that the Iowa was sunk by orcs.

Restricted to basically coastal ops much like you see in A River Runs Through It - that is a lot more realistic and probably the real situation. I.e. they have ships but they dont have the fuel to go all the way across to Korea with any force big enough to bring back the 8th Army. And you need escorts as well as just merchies or transports to bring them back - or you are dead meat to even a corvette.

I think the real issue may be do the South Koreans even want them still there - considering how much the war has probably ripped them up all they dont need is to feed even more people than they have to. And if the other side doesnt have air power and ships to go around their defense lines then you can hold the NK's and Soviets pretty easily if its men charging dug in machine guns and minefields.

[bobcat]

not really knowing much regarding Korea in canon all i can go off of is my experience there for predicting anything. and my best guess would be rather grim. in the 1950's we had most of the UN helping with the fight in canon it was the US and the ROKA from the south and maybe a small amount of Chinese support from the north.

best case scenario 6-8 years to get any of the airbases back online longer if they got nuked, few naval assets for any extraction, limited fuel. but if enough soju can be gotten ahead of time or enough stills for all elements an overland movement along highway 1 is possible (granted Highway 1 is mostly dirt roads in NK but the rest of it is pretty solidly paved highway all the way to baghdad)

[Olefin]

There are supposed to be other troops in Korea helping us as well but not sure how many - not sure if it was in V1 or V2.2 but I thought I remember the Australians and Thais for sure being on the list of other troops there.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Thailand has the power-projection with an active short carrier. I wonder if they'd give US troops a lift home.

[bobcat]

Thailand has the power-projection with an active short carrier. I wonder if they'd give US troops a lift home.

possibly but considering the variables that i am aware of. the overland route via highway 1 is the most surefire way of getting the USFK elements moved to link up with Centcom. that could be a campaign on its own though.

[Olefin]

Bangkok, Cesspool of the Orient really overlooked the Thai Navy by the way - since they stayed out of the war locally they should have grown proportionally in strength to the local navies that actually took a beating - i.e. the Indonesians and Australians

[raketenjagdpanzer]

possibly but considering the variables that i am aware of. the overland route via highway 1 is the most surefire way of getting the USFK elements moved to link up with Centcom. that could be a campaign on its own though.

Wait, are you talking about driving from Korea to Iraq or Iran Yeek. Talk about Xenophon's Anabasis.

[Rainbow Six]

There are supposed to be other troops in Korea helping us as well but not sure how many - not sure if it was in V1 or V2.2 but I thought I remember the Australians and Thais for sure being on the list of other troops there.

The Challenge magazine article on Canada mentions an Australian force fighting in Korea. The subject of other nations (including Thailand) being involved has come up here from time to time before, but I don't think anything definitive has ever been published anywhere (if the Thais were involved I would have thought the Bangkok sourcebook would be the most likely place to cover it.)

[Rainbow Six]

I'm in the "Tarawa in the Baltic" camp myself.

As am I...

[Snake Eyes]

If I was running Bangkok, I would certainly allow Aussies.

[HorseSoldier]

We'd discussed on the forum before the possibility that Tarawa was in the pacific in July of 2000 (I think, anyway) and given that the USN tended to treat the pacific as their own private lake anyway there may well be some naval forces left to form the core of an evac convoy.

In a universe where Soviet forces are romping through Alaska and down into British Columbia most of the way to Seattle, it's hard to picture the USN having any significant presence left in the Pacific, in my opinion.

not really knowing much regarding Korea in canon all i can go off of is my experience there for predicting anything. and my best guess would be rather grim. in the 1950's we had most of the UN helping with the fight in canon it was the US and the ROKA from the south and maybe a small amount of Chinese support from the north.

The modern situation is a whole different animal, starting with the fact that the ROK military at the start of the Korean War was an absolute mess in various ways, whereas its modern incarnation is pretty damn burly and probably wouldn't have much trouble dealing with a North Korean attack if the two nations squared off without outside support on either side.

Plus the UN effort in the Korean War included several nations, but most of them, outside the US and Commonwealth nations, did not contribute much, numerically, and sometimes contributed troops who were of limited utility.

And their current transport lift could easily bring the Marines and their tanks there from Korea to CENTCOM as is and then go back for the Army. And I could see the French even helping out - i.e. they are helping CENTCOM logistically so they can fight the Soviets, Iraqis and Syrians instead of them - so bringing more personnel to strengthen the US is actually a good idea for them - especially if they extract a "we do this and you agree to more oil for France postwar" kind of deal.

The Japanese are likely much more interested in US forces in Korea than the French are. In my work-in-progress stuff on Alaska circa 2000, I have the Japanese parking a small brigade on the Cook Inlet oil fields made up of a Japanese airborne battalion task force and a battalion of American mercenaries recruited out of Korea, plus a lot of Americans from Korea also turning up as security detachments for individual Japanese ships or trading/exploration efforts throughout the Pacific Rim, as the situation in Korea turns increasingly falls apart after the nukes.