Twilight War Germany

[RN7]

Thanks for the positive comments. Is everyone happy with the orbats and the inclusion of new German Army units then

I've tried to create a realistic account of how German forces would develop in the later stages of the Twilight War. I've largely stuck with divisions as opposed to smaller units which can be hard to fit into a larger orbat. I was going to add an orbat for American, British and French forces in Germany as well but I think it might have distracted from the rest of the article.

I would like to add further to the article in the future.

The regional section needs some expansion. If I had the time I could double the coverage on the regions and cities of Germany and add some new sections on cities that I only covered briefly. But there is so much to write about and research and its hard to fit everything in.

The weapons and equipment section also needs some work, also maybe some more information on the equipment of the Luftwaffe and Bundesmarine. I'd like to do it in more detail in the future such as in the GDW sourcebooks or on Paul Mulcahy's website.

Also if anyone wants to add some characters their more than welcome to put them up.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Actually a US ORBAT would be fantastic...or even a spun-off "US Forces Remaining in Europe" write up

[Olefin]

A US Orbat could be a great spun off thread from this thread where you could give your idea of how the US units still left in Germany have changed since the last time they were detailed - which would be at Omega

Things like:

Did the US forces there form new units from those who showed up too late or add them to the existing units and if so how

Since some of the US units stayed in Europe and are assisting the Germans in their fight against the remaining Soviet and marauder units did the Germans loan them some of the equipment the evacuating units left behind to make them more combat ready

How are they now organized and who do they report to

What is being done to get the units cutoff in Poland back to Germany or at least back in contact with the American units left in Germany.

One big question remains as well - will the Germans try to take back any of their old pre-WWII borders from Poland or possibly help the Austrians push the Soviet units out but at the price of Austria now becoming part of a new Germany

[TrailerParkJawa]

I really enjoyed this. Had some time off yesterday and spent some of it reading through your work. I enjoyed the section about how things are in 2001 the most.

I did find myself wondering if I would support the West Germans. I can't personally support them crossing the border first. But Im not sure I can't just abandon them and say "hey bud you picked a fight your on your own".

[RN7]

British section updated with ORBAT.

[Cdnwolf]

Trying to work out a board game style map based on the information you gave. Great work.

[Panther Al]

Outstanding stuff.


I am really interested in hearing more about Austria and how the US Forces in the area are working out since that is the zone I played in the most back in the day.

[RN7]

Departing with Task Force 34 from Bremerhaven were the following major units minus their equipment.

US Seventh Army
I Corps
VII Corps
1st Armored Division (16x M1A2, 12x M1A1, 8x M1)
1st Cavalry Division (20x M1A2, 18x M1A1, 10x M1)
2nd Armored Division (1x M1A2, 3x M1A1, 11x M1)
44th Armored Division (4x M1A1, 2x M1, 12x M60A3)
1st Mechanised Division (4x M1A2, 16x M1A1, 10x M1)
3rd Mechanised Division (10x M1A1)
6th Infantry Division (6x M8)
35th Mechanised Division (9x M1A1, 14x M1)
36th Mechanised Division (10x M1, 21x M60A3, 4x M8)
38th Infantry Division (6x M60A3)
40th Mechanised Division (2x M1, 4x M60A3)
43rd Infantry Division (10x M60A3)
2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment (2x M1A2, 6x M8)
278th Armored Cavalry Regiment

According to Going Home they left behind their equipment which is 241 tanks (43x M1A2, 72x M1A1, 57x M1, 53x M60A3, 16x M8)

GDW doesn't break down the equipment levels in most units besides tanks and helicopters. I would also estimate an average of about 30 IFV/APC per division. 1st Arm, 1st CAV, 2nd Arm, 1st Mech, 3rd Mech, 35th Mech, 36th Mech and 40th Mech Divisions are M2/M3 equipped while 44th Arm, 38th Inf and 43rd Inf are M113/M115 equipped and 6th Light Infantry uses light vehicles. Most divisional artillery is self-propelled (MLRS/M109) with a few towed 155mm artillery units in the M113/M115 equiped divisions, while the 6th Light Infantry uses LARS and towed 105mm guns, plus add a small number of M3 and M115 in the armored cavalry regiments as a well as a few helicopters per divisions. Also plenty of HMMWV and trucks and some combat engineer equipment.

By my estimates per division (30x APC, 5-10x artillery and at least 30 light vehicles) departing US forces left behind..

241 tanks (43x M1A2, 72x M1A1, 57x M1, 53x M60A3, 16x M8), 330 IFV/APC (40 M3, 20x M115, 190x M2, 70x M113), 110 Artillery (10 MLRS, 60x M109, 40x 155/105mm) plus a few LARS and ADA, 400 Light Vehicles (maybe more) and about 30 helicopters.

I've distributed some US units around the German divisions but they would only amount to a division and a half of what was left behind.

[Olefin]

I would think that if any US units were issued equipment from the stockpile left behind by the Germans it would be the 1st Cav and the 107 ACR

The 107 ACR's 600 men regard themselves as part of the German Army - thus they would probably get re-equipped with at least some tanks and Bradleys so they could function again as a Cav unit, now under German control as part of their Army

The 1st Cav has a lot of men and a decent amount of tanks and probably IFV's as well - a very powerful unit for 2001 - I could see the Germans giving them some and using them for any operation to try to break thru to the cutoff XI corps, especially if they intend to use such an operation as a distraction for any ops in Austria to clear that area

As for the various outlaw US units - they could consider using the Cav on them as well - i.e. roll up and tell them there is still a war on and they can put themselves back under US and German control and see what happens

as well equipped as the Cav is I dont see what is left of the 11th ACR or the 1st-40 surviving long against them. The 70th could give them a pretty good fight though.

[RN7]

American section updated with ORBAT.

[Panther Al]

Excellent RN - You left the Best Cav unit in the US Army in Europe. Only quibble I have is that Sabre (2nd) would have a tank or three because everyone knows Grim Troop is the best troop....



OK.

A little Biased there...

[Olefin]

RN - two corrections you should probably make

you have the 5th Mech still in one piece in Poland - i.e.

5th Mechanised Division (3,000 men, 12x M1A2, 21x M1A1, 9x M1): Poland
1st Brigade (710 men, 12x M1A2, 3x M2)
2nd Brigade (1,100 men, 21x M1A1, 6x M2)
256th Louisiana NG Brigade (880 men, 9x M1, 12x M113)
1/5th Attack Helicopter Battalion (90 men, 1x AH-1F, 1x UH-1H)
1st Field Artillery Battalion (100 men, 1x MLRS, 3x M109A3)
7th Combat Engineer Battalion (120 men, 1x M104 AVLB, 1x M88)

there might still be survivors in Poland but most of the division is gone after they got overrun back in July of 2000

Also you have the 1st Cavalry Division going home with Omega

according to Going Home they stayed in Europe, with only a small group going home - from Page 13 of the module

1st US CD (3, 000 men, 48 AFVs): Currently in cantonment
near Rosenheim, with 2, 400 men and 43 AFVs present, These
personnel have decided to disobey the evacuation order, and
remain in Germany. The remainder have left for Bremerhaven
in small groups.

So 2400 men and 43 AFV's would still be in Europe while 600 men and 5 AFV's went to Bremerhaven, with the tanks going to the Germans and the men going back to Norfolk

the Germans might have given them back their 5 AFV's as they are still fighting with them against the Soviets and marauders

[RN7]

Thanks Olefin, ammended that.

[boogiedowndonovan]

cool stuff

have you checked out the NATO 1998 orbat on tanknet

It has a very detailed German section, including Territorials, Luftwaffe and Bundesmarine. The entire orbat focuses mainly on ground combat units, but it does include Luftwaffe and Bundesmarine ground units. It also includes the German Territorial Army which is not just the Heimatschutz brigades and regiments but all sorts of defensive units.


I quickly scanned the US section of your article. Only two brigades for the 1st Cav 1st and 155th What happened to the 2nd brigade disbanded and excess men and equipement sent to the 1st and 155th

I think it would also be interesting to see what happens with the 11th ACR if the CIA contacts them and convinces them to declare for CIVGOV.

here's a link to the post on this board about the NATO 1989 orbat.

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.phpt=3504

[RN7]

cool stuff

have you checked out the NATO 1998 orbat on tanknet

It has a very detailed German section, including Territorials, Luftwaffe and Bundesmarine. The entire orbat focuses mainly on ground combat units, but it does include Luftwaffe and Bundesmarine ground units. It also includes the German Territorial Army which is not just the Heimatschutz brigades and regiments but all sorts of defensive units.

That Orbats been around a while and I did reference some parts of it in my own orbat but thanks.

I quickly scanned the US section of your article. Only two brigades for the 1st Cav 1st and 155th What happened to the 2nd brigade disbanded and excess men and equipement sent to the 1st and 155th

See Olefin's post above.