The Atlantic and the Northern Countries

[Panther Al]

Nuke usage in T2K doesn't exactly follow any plans I've ever heard about. From reading through all the material (all versions) it seems fairly clear that each and every warhead was fired off on a case by case basis - might have been a dozen or so a day, but it was still far from a wide scale usage (well, ok, maybe against China it was). Every warhead was targeted to achieve a specific goal, while simultaneously avoiding going "too far" and triggering a full scale strategic exchange.
As it says in the books:
Therefore, without a clear and specific target in Sweden, there's no real requirement for them to have been hit, especially since the other side may have acted rather negatively at the nuking of a neutral country (NATO were probably happy France got hit after they abandoned them and invaded Belgium, the Netherlands and part of Germany, and may even have fired a few warheads at them themselves).

Totally agree: The Nuclear Exchanges was very much a piecemeal thing in hopes to keep it from becoming an 1000 missile bad night. Its that piecemeal exchange that in a weird way, made things a nightmare scenario as they are in the TW2K 'verse as I alluded to when I referred to a comment a friend of mine who is in the business of nukes and the use of in another thread.

(In short: The TDM was too massive in too short a time to allow emergency services to do a good job in dealing with the effects, but too small and targeted on the right targets without hitting others, that would force a epically massive need for the same.)

[Lundgren]

Which idiot at NATO HQ thought that one up! And more importantly the British Army toy-box is empty, what units

Good points.

Nuke usage in T2K doesn't exactly follow any plans I've ever heard about.

As the saying goes, no plan ever survive the contact with the enemy. In my opinion, plans are just a foundation for improvisation.

(In short: The TDM was too massive in too short a time to allow emergency services to do a good job in dealing with the effects, but too small and targeted on the right targets without hitting others, that would force a epically massive need for the same.)

I agree as well. Just one hit in an urban area would probably tie up most of a countries medical and firefighting abilities.

One thing to remember is that the Soviet nukes was cruder and larger. I don't know if that was correct for the late '90s or not. But the reason for the larger Soviet ones was that the western robots could hit a specific building, and a Soviet one could not. A Soviet one didn't have precision enough to hit a specific city block, so it needed a lot more bang to make sure the target was destroyed. That was also the reason why it was any point to build those bunkers that would survive "...unless receiving a direct hit."

[Trooper]

About nuke strikes in Scandinavia...

We can agree to disagree.

Now let's move on!

I have been thinking some campaign ideas to Baltic Sea area.

Estonian oil shale – who is going to control this valuable resource

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_shale_in_Estonia

Soviets – crushing new independent Estonian state.

Finland – supporting new independent Estonia. Not direct involvement but a proxy war. Arming & training of Estonian freedom fighters. There are close ties between Finnish and Estonian people. Many Estonian volunteered to serve in Finnish army & navy during WW 2 – because they didn't want serve in German army. Finnish volunteers also trained Estonians in 80s, when Estonian was trying to regain its independence.

(ex-NATO mercenaries – welcome to Tallinn.)

Sweden – Without nuclear strikes Swedish is going to be very strong military power in northern Europe (mini France). They can try direct occupation of Estonian oil shale mining and production areas
.
Of course you can throw in different political factions in your campaign to create game without goodies and baddies.

Great WMD hunt

Swedish and Finnish special forces trying to find nuclear warheads on soviet soil. Their goal is to find working nuclear warheads. (If war is going to "heat up" again, there is no better defense against nuclear blackmail...) Of course you have to specialist to maintain and rearm those weapons. Again unnuked Sweden can send their own special forces, but Finnish army is going to use mercenaries to locate those warheads. (They can even hire some stragglers from 5th division...)

Soviets : GRU spetsnaz team trying to regain those lost warheads. KGB trying to "help" their comrades...

[Medic]

If you guys want, I probably could continue where my esteemed countryman hopped off. The thread about Finland in Twilight: 2000 is, as such, my interpretation of how things went in Finland, but I can translate the originals to a language a bit more of you understand.

Edit: The Finnish supplement, 'Erikoisjoukot' (Special Forces on English) has a number of things that might interest those who run things with the first version of the game. I can see, if I'll find time to translate those templates.

[Raellus]

A good buddy's T2K PbP has Gdansk fighting to remain a free city in the late summer of 2000. He had a small group of Swedish SF operating in the city (their intentions were never fully explained in the game, but I'm hoping to learn what they were doing there someday.) Lundgren, could you see Sweden trying to support a friendly city-state on the Baltic

I could also see the Swedes operating against pirate bases along the Baltic from the fall of 2000 on. In most cases, they would be conducting raids to destroy pirate enclaves, but I imagine that the Swedes might possibly occupy some territory in their piracy suppression efforts, at least temporarily. Does that sound plausible

Trooper, I really like your Estonian oil shale scenario. I think it would be interesting to play "neutrals" in the T2K world. The French seem to get a lot of play, but I find the Scandinavian/Baltic angle quite captivating. It's also a good place for stragglers from the U.S. 8th I.D. to end up as well.

[Medic]

Actually, since there is little happening on RPoL just now, here's the first batch of 'Erikoisjoukot'.

New Skills

EXP: Explosives. The charactersnwith this particular skill can set and disarm explosives, know how they can be rigged on bridges, vehicles etc.. They can also set and disarm traps. This skill replaces CBE in such tasks. Characters with high skill level in EXP know something about Combat Engineering as well and can attempt the tasks with 1/4 of their EXP-skill and vice versa. EXP costs, like CBE, double and can be bought either as a military or background skill, but as background skill it costs three times the normal price, that is, three points per a percent up to 50 and 6 points a percent from there on.

SKI: Skiing. The character with this skill knows how to ski. Skiing in the ordinary terrain is ESY:SKI, on hills AVG:SKI and in the mountains DIF:SKI. The skill can be selected as background, education or military skill.

MA: Martial Arts. This skill depicts some oriental martial art like Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Ju Jutsu and Kung-Fu. These styles are all different and putting them under one skill is a great insult, but highly necessary for easing up the progress of the game. It can be chosen as either background, education or military skill, but as a background skill it costs three times the normal.

The characters with this skill know a couple more tricks than ordinary characters. Fighting the ordinary characters unarmed is easier for them and they get two unarmed attacks per turn against any opponent.

Strike: A character with the Martial Arts skill can choose between punch and kick. Punching is ESY:MA and kicking is AVG:MA. Blocking either one is DIF:MC, DIF:BC or AVG:MA. If the martial artist wishes to make an aimed strike, doing so with a kick will be DIF:MA. Aiming a punch is far easier and the difficulty does not change.

Martial Arts strike has damage ratingof Unarmed Damage + 1d6+2 for punch and Unarmed Damage + 1d10 for kick.

Joint Lock: Joint Lock works as with BC, but it is either AVG:AGI or AVG:MA and takes both attacks that turn. For martial artists the Joint Lock 'damage' is Unarmed Damage + 1d10 for martial artists.

Knockdown: A new attack type for unarmed combat. This is exclusively for Martial Artists. The attack is AVG:MA. If the target was not surprised, he can try to dodge, which is DIF:AGI. If the dodge is unsuccesful, he will fall prone and be stunned.

All other rules for unarmed combat can be found in the Play Manual.

TRA: Traps. This skill is used in setting and disarming traps.

Setting Traps: Ordinary traps without explosives are AVG:TRA and with explosives DIF:TRA. You can try twice each time. If you succeed, roll d100 and add your Traps-skill. This is the traps visibility value. Record the number. If you are not satisfied with it, you can attempt to improve it by making a DIF:TRA. If this is successful, add 2d10 to the value; if not, reduce the value by 2d10. This score is final and you can not change it anymore.

Disarming Traps: Disarming a trap is DIF:TRA. If successful, the trap has been rendered inoperable and poses no longer a threat. If unsuccessful, there is a 10% chance, the trap is set off.

Detecting Traps: Detecting traps is a task, but it is resolved slightly differently than the usual tests. Roll d100 and add your RCN or TRA. If the result is higher than the visibility value of the trap, you detect it. Wild animals and dogs are considered to have RCN of 75 and other animals 60. If the character doesn't detect the trap, it goes off.

Characters with CBE or EXP know a thing or two about traps as well and can use 1/4 of their skill instead of TRA. TRA costs double and can be bought as background, education or military skill, but costs triple as background skill.

DT: Dog Training. With this skill the characters can control and train dogs. Issuing ordinary commands (sit, stay, heel) to ones own dog is an automatic success. If the dog belongs to someone else, but is friendly, the task is ESYT. To order a dog to attack is ESYT for your own dog and AVGT for someone elses friendly dog.

Tracking by just the smell is DIFT for your own dog and by the smell on an object AVGT. For someone elses dog, the task is DIFT for both. The test is made for the dog once after fifteen minutes. If the dog loses the trail, it can try again every five minutes.

Dogs can be trained as well. Teaching the basic commands to a puppy is AVGT, attacking and tracking DIFT. For adult dogs, both tasks are one step more difficult.

Even if the dog belongs to a player character, the GM will do all the rolls for the dogs. The GM should remember, dogs are just ordinary creatures and can not be coerced. They won't attack a ten-man group of bandits even if the owner told them to. Well treated it is, however, a faithful companion and won't abandon its master. The skill can be learned as background, education or military skill.

CLI: Climbing. This skill includes climbing walls with or without a rope. With harness, climbingnis ESY:CLI, with just a rope AVG:CLI and without one DIF:CLI. It can be learned as a background or military skill, but costs double as a background skill.

COM: Communications. This skill replaces ELC in using communications equipment. Can be chosen as background, education or military skill.

RDR: Radar. The skill of using radars, which replaces ELC in those uses. It can be learned as background or military skill, but as a background skill it costs double.

[Medic]

For the Estonian scenario, I could buy that, though I'd believe, there has been some action along (and across) the Fenno-Soviet border. If it has not been a active war, it has been Special Forces type operations on both sides. For the Soviets the troops have been Spetznas while for the Finns, they have probably been either sissi (ranger), laskuvarjoj$$k$ri (airborne; technically same as the sissi, except they are inserted by parachute drops or helicopters) or taistelusukeltaja (combat diver) operations.

Finns would probably, as the doctrine dictates, concentrate on mining the Gulf of Finland in places the Finnish Coastal Artillery can not get firing solutions to and use the missile boats to make quick strikes from their hiding places inside the archipelago. The mining operations would probably be extended to the Estonian coast as well, making it difficult, if not impossible for the Soviet Baltic Fleet to conduct a landing operation behind the Estonian lines. The Finnish Airforce would extend the effected area across the Gulf of Finland as well, especially if reinforced by Swedish Royal Airforce in this operation. Of course, airborne operations would be continued only to the point, where there would be enough fuel to launch one final strike in case of an emergency. Same goes for most naval vessels.

The Gulf of Bothnia would be kept open for commercial traffic as long as possible, as the naval route is by far the easiest when Finland is concerned. The network of underwater listening stations and observation posts on islands gives a good chance for detecting and tracking the enemy naval forces.

As an anecdote, a person I know was serving in coastal artillery as a sensor operator during his conscript service and he spotted a strange sounding ship on the underwater system. He begun checking the timetables (there's several ferries going back and forth between Finland and Sweden daily), managed to find the ship there and called the to check their props once they reached the harbor in Turku. They did - there was a huge chunk of metal missing fromone of them, which could have eventually caused the blade to break off and great deal of damage to the powertrain. The guy received a couple extra days of leave for that.

The military co-operation between Finns and Estonians is not a new thing as I think I wrote in that pas history-thread of mine. It existed prior to WWII, but the Soviet Union invaded Estonia very early and the co-operation ended before it had gotten up to speed. Had it done that, the Soviets would have had great difficulties navigating through the Gulf of Finland, as they would have been subjected to the fire of heavy coastal artillery batteries on both sides, designed with overlapping fields of fire and a communications cable running across at the bottom of the gulf, giving the batteries the advantage of one single forward observer calling the fire. This would have been augmented by minefields, submarines and the two Finnish Coastal Defence Ships V$in$minen and Ilmarinen with their 10" batteries.

[Legbreaker]

Estonian oil shale who is going to control this valuable resource

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_shale_in_Estonia

I proposed a couple of years back that this very resource could have been an objective of the US 8th ID.

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.phpt=2706

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.phpt=3261

If you guys want, I probably could continue where my esteemed countryman hopped off.

Sounds like a plan!
Perhaps tack it on the end of the existing thread http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.phpt=1437

[Lundgren]

Reposting in the correct thread...

The upgrade of the Swedish army during the early 90's would free up a lot of M/45 submachine-guns and 6,5mm Mauser rifles from the home guard. The home guard are upgraded to the AK4 (H&K G3) freed up from the Army. The Swedish police also replaced their version of the M/45 with H&K MP5.

I noticed that the English Wikipedia page for the M/45 didn't mention the 9mmB ammunition. It is an overloaded version of the 9mm parabellum round, and all but the oldest ones can handle it.

If the Swedish army would involve itself on the continent (or elsewhere), all of those weapons would still be in storage and could be used to equip "support forces".

[Lundgren]

One does not simply walk into Mordo... Scandinavia.

With the only southern land crossing being the bridge between Denmark and Sweden, the southernmost northern being the border between Finland and Sweden, a lot of rivers with not that many bridges, and large low populated areas; it would probably not be that hard keeping refugees from the rest of Europe out.

Sweden also has a quite developed medical industry at the outbreak of the war. So unless Sweden was targeted, the diseases killing millions in Europe would probably not spread into Scandinavia. Now, with Sweden being more or less a "covert member" of NATO and the Russians knows it, Sweden could easily receive some nukes (probably part of the reason why the Swedish military doctrine looked the way it was with its resources scattered around).

With the oil in Estonia, I have heard that quite a few Estonians consider their country being part of the nordic countries. So if the situation stabilizes enough in Norway, Denmark and Finland, "helping the Estonians" could be a good excuse to bring their oil into the Nordic fold.

Another point, that can either be used as a reason to drop some nukes on Sweden, or to use Sweden as a future "power player", is that while the nuclear weapon program was scrapped in the fifties; Sweden do have nuclear power-plants, space rocket technology (if I recall correctly, the European Space Agency uses two launch sites, one in South America and Esrange outside Kiruna in Northern Sweden), and knowhow. So it would probably not take long from a project green-light until Sweden could drop a nuke at a location anywhere around the world. When the nukes start flying, the Swedish political establishment might reconsider their "nuclear weapon free zone" stance.