Gun trucks and convoy escorts

[pmulcahy11b]

This discussion dovetails with something I asked here about a year ago; I recall that we never came up with a satisfactory answer. Every military vehicle, be it on exercise, in combat, or in war footage has the exterior of the vehicle practically covered with personal gear, food, extra water, etc. What sort of AV would this kind of stuff make (if only temporary...). I would think it might at least break up a plasma jet from a HEAT round.

[pmulcahy11b]

Here's another thing you could armor up with (though they'd be rare) are EOD armor blankets. They use them to throw over explosives when they need to contain an explosion they believe to be imminent. Police would be more likely to have them than military. They're generally of Kevlar/glass fiber construction, and they're pretty much heavy blankets. Might solve your spall liner problem if you can find enough.

[Targan]

Paul, when I was a shotfirer we had blast mats that performed a similar function to the EOD blankets you describe. We used them to prevent flyrock from surface or shallow sub-surface charges, and to protect vulnerable objects near blast sites. They could certainly withstand the effects of detonating small charges in direct contact.

Ours were made from cut sections of worn out steel radial belted tyres, stitched together with heavy gauge wire. Cheap and easy to put together but due to their weight not as portable as the ones you mentioned and ours wouldn't have been as fire resistant either.

[Panther Al]

This discussion dovetails with something I asked here about a year ago; I recall that we never came up with a satisfactory answer. Every military vehicle, be it on exercise, in combat, or in war footage has the exterior of the vehicle practically covered with personal gear, food, extra water, etc. What sort of AV would this kind of stuff make (if only temporary...). I would think it might at least break up a plasma jet from a HEAT round.

Speaking from experience, not much.

A Brad was knocked out by a RPG back when I was over, and the round pretty much ignored the duffels as it blew past them and into the rear of the track.

Unoccupied, thankfully, but it did mission kill the Brad.

[Targan]

That makes sense in terms of how shaped charge warheads work. They usually have to strike a solid object to detonate. Packs, ration cartons, plastic containers, cammo nets, ponchos, clothing, these are all materials that would tend to collapse, give way or be pushed aside by a flying projectile. The plasma jet can't be dissipated if it hasn't yet been formed.

[Panther Al]

I think thats part of it: the rest I think can be attributed to the fact that the usual soft items found in the bags really don't attrit the jet all that much if at all: the plasma is meant to cut through steel: a bag full of uniforms isn't gonna faze it.

[Targan]

I wonder if having soft items like bags and rucks hanging over reactive armor blocks would affect the reliability/effectiveness of the reactive armor. Obviously if a block detonated it would shred soft items on top of it.

[Graebarde]

In reference to using the 2.5s for gun trucks. They would not hold up long mechanically as was discovered in 'Nam. The frames broke when they were armored up and got heavy ordnance, hence the switch to 5 tonners. I'm sure you'd see some, but the heavier truck is much more preferred from experience. And IF you are going to go to the trouble to armor a vehicle, why not do it to a vehicle that can take the mechanical punishment than run the risk of a breakdown with the sub-standard one

Just my 2 cents and change.

[Olefin]

One area you left out would be in Kenya with the US forces there. Considering the threat from Somalis and others using Technicals to attack convoys and isolated garrisions, along with the fact that the US forces in Kenya were on a shoe string the whole time, the gun truck would be something that would definitely make an appearance there - and there could be a large mix there of US, British, civilian, Chinese and Pact vehicles being used by both sides.

[kiltedguard]

I wonder if having soft items like bags and rucks hanging over reactive armor blocks would affect the reliability/effectiveness of the reactive armor. Obviously if a block detonated it would shred soft items on top of it.

Yes, actually you are not supposed to store gear externally on the sides of tracks (APCS/TANKS) if they have had reactive armor blocks installed on them. It negatively impacts performance.


On another note, I'm curious how this thread has completely overlooked the wide spread use of "Gun Trucks" in vietnam. There was a little info in the article, but there is as much variation as there is imagination. I agree with the opinion that they are "come as you are" designs. Have done two tours in Iraq, once when we were doing a large amount of custom fabrication and once when all our armor was actually manufactured as part of the vehicle with the new M1114 series of HMMV hitting the sand.

Let's not ignore the down side of slapping several thousand pounds of steel onto a chassis that wasn't meant to carry it....1) Mechanical Breakdowns increase as stress is placed on the suspension and drive train. 2) You are putting more pounds per square inch on the same wheeled footprint. This has the effect of hampering cross country movement and increase the chances of getting stuck in softer terrain.

[Targan]

On another note, I'm curious how this thread has completely overlooked the wide spread use of "Gun Trucks" in vietnam.

This thread doesn't cover it but we've had a couple of previous, extensive threads on gun trucks and technicals where gun trucks in Vietnam were discussed. If I have time tomorrow I might look through the old threads for the relevent discussions.

[schnickelfritz]

Let's not ignore the down side of slapping several thousand pounds of steel onto a chassis that wasn't meant to carry it....1) Mechanical Breakdowns increase as stress is placed on the suspension and drive train. 2) You are putting more pounds per square inch on the same wheeled footprint. This has the effect of hampering cross country movement and increase the chances of getting stuck in softer terrain.

From what I've been able to find out there, that would seem to be the reason (as others have pointed out here) why they went from 2.5 ton class trucks (M35 series) to 5 ton class trucks in Vietnam. I'd assume the same would happen abroad in T2K.

I am still very much of the opinion that most gun truck type vehicles possesed at the community/county and perhaps even state level in the US (away from the war zones of the Southwest) would be 6x4 or 6x6 dump trucks...those frames are meant for carrying a ton (no pun intended) of weight, and I doubt much additional plating would be need to be added to the side walls of steel dump bodies anyway. I've seen some trucks used by professional demolition companies here and the bodies seem heaviier to account for dealing with reinforced concrete scrap.

I would also think trucks used for construction work with high flotation tires (wider, not monster truck tires) would be attractive as well.

Particularly inventive and/or handy communities may even get into converting cement mixer trucks to gun trucks. After all, in T2K, do you really need a fleet of dozens of cement trucks There are ready-mmix plants in the area here that have fleets in the order of dozens of vehicles.

Any thoughts whether you would see the tracked cargo carriers converted here or abroad into ersatz armored vehicles

My $0.05-

-Dave

[schnickelfritz]

Please allow me to clarify my suggestion about converted cement trucks...I mean replacing the mixer apparatus with a non functional dump body. I would imagine you could take either a 3 axle dump truck body or shorten a semi trailer dump box to do the job. Shortening the semi body would probbably allow you to construct a passage to the cab as well at the same time.

-Dave

[pmulcahy11b]

Please allow me to clarify my suggestion about converted cement trucks...I mean replacing the mixer apparatus with a non functional dump body. I would imagine you could take either a 3 axle dump truck body or shorten a semi trailer dump box to do the job. Shortening the semi body would probbably allow you to construct a passage to the cab as well at the same time.

-Dave

Maybe one could also cut the top of the mixer apparatus (tough work, I know) and put a metal or wood floor down inside, then weld some pintle mounts around the sides and front. A heavier weapon could be fired from the rear. Maybe even some kind of ball mount could be made for the rear.

[Neal5x5]

This is a very good article and James should be congratulated. This is as good as anything published by GDW and possibly Osprey.

Regarding a followup, it might be worthwhile to explore some of the convoy/gun truck material that came out of Africa in the 1960s and 1970s, particularly Rhodesia. There was some wild stuff built there to protect convoys of civilians and military alike.

One of my favorite was the Spider shotgun system, a barrel-like device mounted on the top of a vehicle with something like 40 12 ga. shotgun barrels splayed around it in a circle. The operator turned a crank, setting off all the shotgun shells and spraying the entire nearby area with whatever load the shells posessed. I recall seeing it in an old (1980s) Soldier of Fortune magazine and noting that it was also used for clearing landmines (). I have no idea if the thing worked, but it looked utterly menacing and would definitely make me hesitate rush that particular vehicle.