US National Guard books (1985-1989) recommendations?

[dude_uk]

Hey guys.

Just writing to as if anyone has any good book reccomendations regarding the US National Guard of the late 80's (Our relevant time period).

I'm interested in two kinds of books. The first, any sort of overall 'idiots-guide'. Notes on organisation, training and day-to-day running. That sort of thing.

The second, more detail on NG Armoured units. I'd like to know more about how a part time tank unit operates. Not so much on the equipment. (Which would be mid-90s stuff anyway) But as above, training etc.

Thanks!

[James Langham]

Something I found useful when I was working on National Guard write ups was Harold Coyle's "They Are Soldiers( - not got it to hand). NG unit deploys to Israeli/Palestinian border to try and keep the peace. Wrong era (2000s) but good for the mentality.

Bear in mind by 2000 however all units will be basically heavily made up of draftees (although the initial make up may affect how they operate to a degree).

[cavtroop]

I was in a NG Armored Cavalry unit from 93-96ish (when they reflagged to arty, I told them to F off ).

I was a track commander on an M901 ITV. The tankers had M60A3's and us scouts had M113's and M901's. We also had a mortar platoon along with the HQ guys. It's a little later than the timeframe you want, but the equipment and training were the same, shoot some questions and I'll see what I can remember

[dragoon500ly]

I was stationed at Fort Knox as a Gunnery Instructor during this time and had the chance to observe several NG companies rotating through the gunnery program.

On the technical side, the NG crews had a quite decent level of skill, they suffer less from crew rotation than the RA, on average the NG kept crews together for 5-6 years compared to 2-3. Crew drills were at least as good and some cases superior to the RA.

In the field, the RA had a greater advantage due to being able to get "down and dirty" far more often than the NG. Depending on the unit, many companies were restricted (budgets and lack of maneuver areas) to sand-table exercises or even reduced to walking the crews through a nearby park or field. Platoon level maneuvers were adequate, company and higher was at a noticeably lower level than the RA

The general view during this time was that the NG would need at least 45-60 days of intenstive training to bring them up to RA standards.

With the NG it really depended on the state, SC/NC/TX/MS/LA units tended to be at a much higher capability than the NY/NJ/PA units for example. But then these guard units had round-out and NATO missions and were able to get more funding and time for training and equipment.

[cavtroop]

I was stationed at Fort Knox as a Gunnery Instructor during this time and had the chance to observe several NG companies rotating through the gunnery program.

On the technical side, the NG crews had a quite decent level of skill, they suffer less from crew rotation than the RA, on average the NG kept crews together for 5-6 years compared to 2-3. Crew drills were at least as good and some cases superior to the RA.

In the field, the RA had a greater advantage due to being able to get "down and dirty" far more often than the NG. Depending on the unit, many companies were restricted (budgets and lack of maneuver areas) to sand-table exercises or even reduced to walking the crews through a nearby park or field. Platoon level maneuvers were adequate, company and higher was at a noticeably lower level than the RA

The general view during this time was that the NG would need at least 45-60 days of intenstive training to bring them up to RA standards.

With the NG it really depended on the state, SC/NC/TX/MS/LA units tended to be at a much higher capability than the NY/NJ/PA units for example. But then these guard units had round-out and NATO missions and were able to get more funding and time for training and equipment.

I'd agree with everything here, it mirrors my view from the inside as well. We as a unit did as well as we could with the extremely limited budgets and time restraints we had. During a typical drill weekend, we wouldn't get to the Cape training area until noon time or so. Then, a couple of hours to draw vehicles etc, we'd finally hit the maneuver area around 3pm in the afternoon. We'd do our thing until late in the evening, usually have some night maneuver of some kind (mounted or dismounted). In the am, it was two hours at the birdbath, another hour or so doing vehicle maintenance/turning in the vehicles, then the long bus ride back to the armory.

During the two week stint in the summer we got about 8 days 'in the box' or so. For the tankers, a large part of that was spent on the gunnery range. Us scouts spent alot of time running STX type lanes, though it was all self-run and evaluated, we got no support from anyone. Also, in the entire 5+ years I spent in the NG, not once did we do weapons qualifications. We did some familiarization fire with the MGs, and even once did a TOW live fire (mine malfunctioned, I was SO PISSED), but no weapons qual at all.

So in short, we knew our stuff, we were just incredibly rusty. Towards the end of my time with the Cav unit, we had zero budget for anything (literally). We'd spend the drill weekends in the armory running sand tables, but mostly fixing up the armory and other bullsh*t like that. MA then decided they didn't have the money to upgrade us to M1's and Bradleys, so they disbanded us. Most of the tankers went up to the VTARNG (they had M1s). Most of the scouts retrained to 13 series MOS (arty) that our unit reflagged as. I wanted nothing to do with that (and was getting fat and out of shape, but that's another thread ) so I just got out.

TL;DR - NG guys are highly motivated and fairly skilled. The skills just don't get used much, so are typically very rusty and will take some time (45-60 days is probably a good guess, as dragon said) to get 'up to speed'.

[Graebarde]

With the NG it really depended on the state, SC/NC/TX/MS/LA units tended to be at a much higher capability than the NY/NJ/PA units for example. But then these guard units had round-out and NATO missions and were able to get more funding and time for training and equipment.

This was the time of the NG brigades in RA REFORGER units too I believe. They learned the lesson in ODS when the 'best' brigades were not ready, nor in some cases with individuals willing to get ready for deployment in the allotted time. Recalling the 'mutiny' of the Mississippi or was it Lousyana tank unit that resulted in the court martial of at least one of the mutineers.

I was in ND NG in the late 70s. As the only MP company in the state, and full of Nam vets, most of them combat vets to boot. Went on the ARTEP for summer training. They stopped out training after three days of scheduled five days as we had exceeded all tasks by that time and the state did not want us to be upgraded in readiness. Yep it depends on the state, or at least use to.

[cavtroop]

This was the time of the NG brigades in RA REFORGER units too I believe. They learned the lesson in ODS when the 'best' brigades were not ready, nor in some cases with individuals willing to get ready for deployment in the allotted time. Recalling the 'mutiny' of the Mississippi or was it Lousyana tank unit that resulted in the court martial of at least one of the mutineers.

I think you're talking about the 256th in Louisiana: http://articles.latimes.com/1991-02-...national-guard

I was active duty at the time, and this made BIG news in military circles.

[dude_uk]

[

]Something I found useful when I was working on National Guard write ups was Harold Coyle's "They Are Soldiers( - not got it to hand). NG unit deploys to Israeli/Palestinian border to try and keep the peace. Wrong era (2000s) but good for the mentality.[

He actually has a better reference book Sword Point . Features a NG unit fighting the Soviets in Iran. Its where I wanted to find out more!



Thanks for the information guys! The first hand accounts are great. Nice to know the Brits aren't the only ones starved of funds

But taking up on your offer for questions:

1) Once "Joe average" (Male, early 20's, 9 to 5 Blue collar job) Decides he wants to play with tanks. How long did it take for him to go from man off the street to National Guardsman deploying on REFORGER How many courses

2) Were all National Guard Armoured units earmarked for West Germany

3) Once 100% trained, what is the training he must attend to continue being a member

[cavtroop]

[
Thanks for the information guys! The first hand accounts are great. Nice to know the Brits aren't the only ones starved of funds

But taking up on your offer for questions:

1) Once "Joe average" (Male, early 20's, 9 to 5 Blue collar job) Decides he wants to play with tanks. How long did it take for him to go from man off the street to National Guardsman deploying on REFORGER How many courses

2) Were all National Guard Armoured units earmarked for West Germany

3) Once 100% trained, what is the training he must attend to continue being a member

Happy to answer!

1) 17 weeks or so. My 19D training (Cav Scout, not tanker) was 17 weeks start to finish, I know the tankers at the time had a very similar timeframe (they were in the barrack right down the street from us at Ft. Knox). Coming out OSUT (One Station Unit Training), you were still green and raw, but you were at your unit then and fully deployable.

2) Don't know the answer to this. Some of the NG Armored units - mostly in the south and west - were called 'round out units'. I believe they'd form one brigade of an Active Duty Army Unit, I don't know the specifics though. My Cav unit was the division Cavalry Squadron for a National Guard Infantry Division, we weren't 'affiliated' in any way with a regular army unit.

3) One weekend a month, two weeks a year until the end of your commitment. Sometimes a guy would take an extra two weeks during the year to attend leadership training for promotion or some other military school, but that was rare. Usually any leadership training/schooling was taken in lieu of your normal 2 week annual commitment.

[Adm.Lee]

I'll take a shot at 2), using stuff I've culled from web sources. Short answer, only the 2 NG mech brigades that were to fill out the 4th and 5th MDs would have gone through REFORGER.

The Guard had 2 Armored Divisions (49th & 50th), it's hard to see where else they would have gone, other than Europe. In T2k, the 49th stayed around Chicago until it returned to Texas in '98.

Three mech divisions were allocated to Europe, and were deployed in T2k's timeline.

Two armored brigades-- ditto, in T2k, part of the made-up 44th AD.

Two brigades all had roundout positions in divisions that REFORGER-ed. 48th Mech Brigade was to roundout the 24th Mech division, the heavy element of CentCom.

There's also two (or four) ACRs, at least one was allotted to Europe, and in T2k, three of them went.

Also, each of the 9 "leg" infantry divisions of the Guard should have their own tank battalion.

[dragoon500ly]

The listing below reflects the NG units and their real-life intended missions:

26th Infantry Division, MA-NG
28th Infantry Division, PA-NG
38th Infantry Division, IN/MI-NG
42nd Infantry Division, NY-NG
47th Infantry Division, MN/IA-NG
These were pure infantry outfits with 1 tk, 1 mech and 7 inf battalions. Generally had Korean/Vietnam-era equipment and were considered to be low-readiness divisions. Not intended for service in NATO, not even intended for overseas duties! There were reports that these were intended for Home Defense only.

29th Infantry Division (Light) VA/MD-NG
Forming during this period and in search of a mission. Was supposed to be the NG "roundout" for the RDF, Norway reinforcement, Korean reinforcement, you get the idea.

35th Infantry Division (Mechanized) NE/KS/KY-NG
40th Infantry Division (Mechanized) CA-NG
The 35th MID had a NATO role (60-90d). The 40th MID, depending on who was in office, was either NATO or Persian Gulf.

49th Armored Division TX-NG
50th Armored Division NY/NJ-NG
The 49th had a NATO role (60-90d) and the 50th was also slatted for NATO (90-120d).

The Separate Infantry Brigades:
29th IB HI-NG was augmentation for the 25th LID
33rd IB IL-NG was another stay-at-home unit
39th IB AR-NG was affiliated with the 101st AAD and was considered to be a future RDF unit.
41st IB OR-NG was augmentation for the 7th LID
45th IB OK-NG was a possible NATO unit
53rd IB FL-NG was a stay-at-home unit
73rd IB OH-NG was a stay-at-home unit
92nd IB PR-NG was a stay-at-home unit
207th IB (Scout) AK-NG was a stay-at-home unit

The Mechanized Infantry Brigades
30th MIB NC-NG was a NATO unit (45-60d)
32nd MIB WI-NG was a NATO unit (60-90d), possible Norway
48th MIB GA-NG was augmentation for the 24th MID
81st MIB WA-NG was augmentation for the 9th ID(M)
218th IB SC-NG was a NATO unit (60-90d)
256th IB LA-NG was augmentation for the 5th MID

The Armored Brigades
30th AB TN-NG was a NATO unit (60-90d)
31st AB AL-NG was a NATO unit (60-90d)
155th AB MS-NG was augmentation for the 1st CD

The Armored Cavalry Regiments
107th ACR OH-NG was a NATO unit (60-90d)
116th ACR ID-NG was a NATO unit (60-90d)
163rd ACR MT-NG was "slotted" for Korea, but would have been most likely committed to NATO
278th ACR TN-NG yet another NATO unit (60-90d)

The "at-home" units were intended to be shifted to cover the border with Mexico and to cover FL and PR from any attempt by Cuba to liberate those areas. There are a couple of articles that the 26th and 47th IDs may have been shipped to Alaska. Considering that these two divisions had little or no aviation support and only 2.5 & 5-ton trucks for transport, they would have been almost immobile in the Alaskan countryside. I would have to stamp that article as a very low probability...

[dragoon500ly]

Happy to answer!

1) 17 weeks or so. My 19D training (Cav Scout, not tanker) was 17 weeks start to finish, I know the tankers at the time had a very similar timeframe (they were in the barrack right down the street from us at Ft. Knox). Coming out OSUT (One Station Unit Training), you were still green and raw, but you were at your unit then and fully deployable.

2) Don't know the answer to this. Some of the NG Armored units - mostly in the south and west - were called 'round out units'. I believe they'd form one brigade of an Active Duty Army Unit, I don't know the specifics though. My Cav unit was the division Cavalry Squadron for a National Guard Infantry Division, we weren't 'affiliated' in any way with a regular army unit.

3) One weekend a month, two weeks a year until the end of your commitment. Sometimes a guy would take an extra two weeks during the year to attend leadership training for promotion or some other military school, but that was rare. Usually any leadership training/schooling was taken in lieu of your normal 2 week annual commitment.

Tankers would have the 17 week OSUT course. When I went through OSUT, roughly half the platoon was NG, One intresting fact was that the Training Company had 16 M-60A1s for the RAs and a single M-48A5 for the NG to train on (mostly to show the differences between the two). Training was roughly the same, although the NG (in 1977 at least) also had two days of riot-control training.

The augmentation or round-outs tended to have younger personnel assigned and were able to get training funds from DOD to help increase their readiness. The 155th Armd Bde (MS-NG) was the only I ever worked with for any length of time and they would do 3-4 days a month and 3 weeks a year, including a stint at the Fort Irwin NTC, one of the very few Guard units to rotate through during the 1980s. It was organzied with 2 tk, 1 mech and 1 FA Bn with an attached troop of cavalry and a engineer company (the later were "augmentation" for the 1st Cavs engr/cav units, but both of those were at full strength. There was a lot of arguement going into Desert Storm that the roundouts could not perform their mission, this was the reason that the 197th MIB replaced the 48th MIB GA-NG in the 24th ID as well as the 1st Cav leaving the 155th at home. Both units argued that they were mission capable, but I would have to go with the DOD decision, neither unit had as much field time as the RA units.

[cavtroop]

The listing below reflects the NG units and their real-life intended missions:

26th Infantry Division, MA-NG
28th Infantry Division, PA-NG
38th Infantry Division, IN/MI-NG
42nd Infantry Division, NY-NG
47th Infantry Division, MN/IA-NG
These were pure infantry outfits with 1 tk, 1 mech and 7 inf battalions. Generally had Korean/Vietnam-era equipment and were considered to be low-readiness divisions. Not intended for service in NATO, not even intended for overseas duties! There were reports that these were intended for Home Defense only.

<snip> There are a couple of articles that the 26th and 47th IDs may have been shipped to Alaska. Considering that these two divisions had little or no aviation support and only 2.5 & 5-ton trucks for transport, they would have been almost immobile in the Alaskan countryside. I would have to stamp that article as a very low probability...

I was in the 26th ID (again, mid 90s). We had about zero cold weather gear, and I never heard about Alaska at all. Cant speak for the rest of the division (never had any contact with anyone outside the Squadron), but we were fully mechanized Cavalry. We were FOR SURE a low-readiness unit - in the mid 90s we still had M113's, M60 tanks and M16A1's for goodness sake. Overall my experience there was a bit of a joke, compared to my active duty experience - I always thought that if we got called up for anything other than disaster relief we'd be in a world of hurt just from an equipment standpoint, let alone training.

[dragoon500ly]

I was in the 26th ID (again, mid 90s). We had about zero cold weather gear, and I never heard about Alaska at all. Cant speak for the rest of the division (never had any contact with anyone outside the Squadron), but we were fully mechanized Cavalry. We were FOR SURE a low-readiness unit - in the mid 90s we still had M113's, M60 tanks and M16A1's for goodness sake. Overall my experience there was a bit of a joke, compared to my active duty experience - I always thought that if we got called up for anything other than disaster relief we'd be in a world of hurt just from an equipment standpoint, let alone training.

LOL! And here I was thinking that the Infantry Journal would have decent info!! Thanks for confirming my own thoughts on it, now, can any one confirm the readiness of the 47th ID during this time period

[schnickelfritz]

All-
Is there anything out there that would show US Army Reserve Mechanized Infantry and Armored formations...if they even existed...in the 80's-90's

I was at Ft Custer in Michigan a number of times from 99-03 and remember seeing some stuff posted there for an Armored unit.

Thanks!
Dave