T2K Austria Sourcebook

[Olefin]

The Hungarian Army in the V2 Soviet Vehicle Handbook doesnt match the true army

The Hungarian Peoples Army had one tank division, the 11th and five Motor Rifle Divisions - the 4th, 8th, 9th, 15th and 17th.

Of these the 11th, 4th and 8th were category B formations with the rest being category C.

They were very unenthusiastic as to their Warsaw Pact participation and had a lot of obsolete equipment, with the T-54/55 being their main battle tank.

There was also an independent tank brigade (the 1st) and a singleair assault battalion, the 37th Air Assault Battalion.

If you look at the V2 Soviet book you have four motorized rifle brigades, three tank brigades and an assault helo regiment plus a para unit they didnt have.

Clearly the V2 guideline doesnt match the actual Hungarian OOB.

[Tegyrius]

(Disclaimer: Rae asked me to weigh in on this, so this isn't just random petty sniping. Also, he currently has three of my PCs at his mercy, so don't feel like he can't get back at me if he takes offense.)

Nothing in here tweaks my implausibility sense. I'm particularly fond of Freikorps Richter and the Papal State, as both are potential adversaries with "higher" purposes beyond simple self-interested power grabs. Also, mad props for the New Hussites, though you really need to give them some mention of Jan Zizka's legacy in their operations and tactics.

Question: Would international relations at the time support the Austrian government-in-exile setting up in Germany rather than Switzerland Given that Austria and Switzerland ostensibly shared the principle of neutrality, the latter seems feasible as well. Or are you operating on the assumption that the Austrian survivors would've thrown in with NATO because the Soviets invaded first

Now I realize I'm something of a heretic around here, as I tend to detest detailed ORBATs and TO&Es (and I think you've provided as much detail as you need to for the ones you've created). But for me, what's missing to make this a complete sourcebook is detail outside the pure military situation. You have good ideas here but they lack a unified thematic framework to make your Austria a unique feature on the landscape of post-WWIII Europe. Right now, it's a blowed-up area with a bunch of foreign dudes with guns in it. You have the potential for ongoing conflict with a NATO-occupied west, a Pact-occupied east, and a central unclaimed territory. Now expand on that and start filling in the blank areas on the map.

Here are the things I want to know more about:

The map. Tell us something on geography and how Austria's terrain features will affect PCs traveling through it or trying to set up housekeeping in it.

The people. What's the take of the average Austrian citizen on the major combatants and the events of the war Are foreign characters likely to find assistance, grudging acquiescence, or a knife in the back based on the national affiliations they display Also, you mention the use of militia and partisan groups in the history, but such Austrian forces are notably absent from the factions you've described so far.

Recent history. If I'm a GM who wants to run in this setting, or a player who wants to play here, I could use a bit more detail on the summer 2000 battles and their outcomes. What happened to the PCs who are now on their own - or still reporting to higher - in central Austria

The government-in-exile. Are they still operating Communicating with Austrian partisan groups and/or the remnants of the regular military Running their own espionage network Tied into DIA or BND operations in Austria

The map, redux. Give us some unique landmarks and cultural elements that will make it obvious that blown-up Austria is its own thing, not an extension of blown-up Poland with different accents on the actors.

- C.

[Raellus]

This is exactly the kind of constructive feedback that I'm looking for. Thanks.

Nothing in here tweaks my implausibility sense. I'm particularly fond of Freikorps Richter and the Papal State, as both are potential adversaries with "higher" purposes beyond simple self-interested power grabs. Also, mad props for the New Hussites, though you really need to give them some mention of Jan Zizka's legacy in their operations and tactics.

I actually thought about this. I couldn't come up with anything that I was happy with, so I pretty much just dropped it and moved on. Here's what I had a hard time with:

In many ways, Zizka was ahead of his time- his use of armored war wagons and early firearms was fairly atypical in the region at the time. I don't think either would work very well in a T2K setting and I don't think a small-time cult figure would have access to better technology that the surviving militaries of the area would have so I gave up on trying to come up with a T2K equivalent/correlate. I also thought about a Zizka-esque second-in-command for Huss II but that seemed too derivative to me. Perhaps, if the PCs meet Huss II and one of them happens to have only one eye, Huss II will declare him/her his reincarnated general.

I was going to add more on the New Hussites' beliefs and such but I found myself drifting too far from what the original Huss was about and I decided that I didn't want a totally divergent Huss II. So, that's another reason tha I kind of dropped it.

I'll give it some more thought and see if I can come up with anything to add to this faction.

Question: Would international relations at the time support the Austrian government-in-exile setting up in Germany rather than Switzerland Given that Austria and Switzerland ostensibly shared the principle of neutrality, the latter seems feasible as well. Or are you operating on the assumption that the Austrian survivors would've thrown in with NATO because the Soviets invaded first

Yes. My thought was that Austria abandoned neutrality when the PACT invaded. Germany came to its aid so its surviving government has put its remaining eggs in the NATO basket. I can also see some members of the government deciding that Switzerland is a safer alternative and heading for the Swiss hills. And, possibly, a couple of Austrian leftist stay behind to welcome the PACT armies with a brotherly socialist embrace. But I think that the bulk of the government would vow to continue the fight for their country and set up shop in Germany.

Now... I realize I'm something of a heretic around here, as I tend to detest detailed ORBATs and TO&Es (and I think you've provided as much detail as you need to for the ones you've created). But for me, what's missing to make this a complete sourcebook is detail outside the pure military situation. You have good ideas here but they lack a unified thematic framework to make your Austria a unique feature on the landscape of post-WWIII Europe. Right now, it's a blowed-up area with a bunch of foreign dudes with guns in it. You have the potential for ongoing conflict with a NATO-occupied west, a Pact-occupied east, and a central unclaimed territory. Now expand on that and start filling in the blank areas on the map.

Here are the things I want to know more about:

The map. Tell us something on geography and how Austria's terrain features will affect PCs traveling through it or trying to set up housekeeping in it.

I've added sections on Austria's geography to the sourcebook (I haven't shared them yet) but I'll go back and put in some more on how Austria's terrain and climate might affect a group of PCs who find themselves there.

The people. What's the take of the average Austrian citizen on the major combatants and the events of the war Are foreign characters likely to find assistance, grudging acquiescence, or a knife in the back based on the national affiliations they display Also, you mention the use of militia and partisan groups in the history, but such Austrian forces are notably absent from the factions you've described so far.

I really need to do this. I don't think I'll add specific partisan factions, but I will add thoughts on the attitude of the average Austrian civilian and/or partisan to foreign folks of various allegiances (or none at all).

Recent history. If I'm a GM who wants to run in this setting, or a player who wants to play here, I could use a bit more detail on the summer 2000 battles and their outcomes. What happened to the PCs who are now on their own - or still reporting to higher - in central Austria

This is something I'm still struggling with. See my notes to Rainbow for more on my conundrum.

The government-in-exile. Are they still operating Communicating with Austrian partisan groups and/or the remnants of the regular military Running their own espionage network Tied into DIA or BND operations in Austria

Good points. I'll definitely address this.

The map, redux. Give us some unique landmarks and cultural elements that will make it obvious that blown-up Austria is its own thing, not an extension of blown-up Poland with different accents on the actors.

I'm going to get my hands on a travel guide to Austria for help with this (I've never been there and didn't really know a whole lot about the place before I embarked on this project). You're right- there's no point in just duplicating the socio-political-military-economic situation already codified in the Poland materials. I agree with you that I need to do more to set Austria apart. I think the human and political geography stuff, once I expand it, will help establish the setting better.

Thanks again.

[Muti]

Try this link pal!

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/attoc.html

[Tegyrius]

Shifting from the story to the crunch, you may also want to include the T2k array of basics on character creation, as Austria is not represented in the v2.2 BYB.

• adjustments for military paths and basic training skills (as per p. 42)
• equivalent ranks (p. 43)
• native language table (p. 43)
• standard-issue personal weapons (p. 50)

Might also be nice to have a theatre-specific vehicle table (as per p. 26). I'm pretty sure Paul's site will have the stats for anything that isn't already represented in the GDW vehicle sourcebooks.

- C.

[Olefin]

It really makes the sourcebook come alive - an OOB of some units just shows who is shooting at each other - but info on the population, land, languages, etc.. brings it to life and lets people use it for a campaign - its sort of the difference between the original Krakow and Black Madonna modules and the return to Europe modules - the originals were full of details and info that let you really play them - the return modules were more just ok here is a short update and rehash now lets get to the OOB's

[Tegyrius]

I threw a few minutes into the theatre-specific vehicle table. This isn't truly theatre-specific so much as it is Austria-specific.

1 - Steyr-Puch 700 Haflinger
2 - Mercedes-Benz G-Wagen
3 - Mercedes-Benz G-Wagen
4 - Pinzgauer 4x4 1-ton
5 - Pinzgauer 6x6 1.5-ton
6 - 2.5-ton truck
7 - 2.5-ton truck
8 - 5-ton truck
9 - 5-ton tank truck
10 - Pandur I
11 - Sauer 4K 4FA
12 - OAF Type 20.320
13 - Sauer 4K 7FA Upgrade
14 - Sauer 4K 7FA MICV 30/1
15 - M47
16 - SK-105 Krassier
17 - M60A3
18 - Leopard 1A4

I've taken a few liberties here. The higher-end versions of the Sauer 4K APC never saw service, but I've added them to the table for variety and because the increasing pressures of the T2k timeline might have induced Austria to upgrade. In the real world, all Austria's M47s were decommissioned or turned into static defenses when they got M60s, but this table assumes some were kept for reserve armor units. Austria never fielded any marque of the Leopard 1, but I felt that an 18 on the vehicle table deserved a more modern MBT, so I've slotted in some imaginary German Leo 1A4s that were provided at some point in the early to mid-war period. If you want strict realism, all the 4K models are base, the M47 is an M60A1, and the Leopard is an M60A3.

- C.

[Raellus]

Cool. A GM could use such a table to roll for faction vehicles or random encounters, or PC vehicles, or whatever. Mind if I include it in the sourcebook I'll give you a shout-out in the credits.

I'd like to include an Italian vehicles table too, since the Italians spent at least a year, in force, in Austrian territory. Paul's given me permission to link to his site for purposes of the sourcebook.

I just got an Osprey Men-at-Arms book on the Hussite Wars and came across a nugget that I'm going to incorporate in the New Hussite faction write up.

Before he died of a variant of the plague, General Zizka, the blind, undefeated Hussite military leader, asked that his skin be turned into a war drum so that he could continue to lead his troops into battle after his passing. It is unlikely that this dying wish was actually fulfilled. Nevertheless, my Huss II is going to claim to possess this drum, further asserting that it will make his rag-tag "army" invincible.

[Panther Al]

I've for the most part always played in the southern front, as I mentioned a while back for the obvious reasons that you already mentioned. Here was our groups take.

Austria, for better or for worse, can best be described as an organised free fire zone. Organised in the fact that the various national units are not scattered to the 3 winds like in Poland, yet, because of the sheer number of different units from different nations, all intermixed to one degree or another, whose lines, while more or less defined, are pretty porous due to the terrain.

Regarding Character Creation, here is what we went by:

Using the German setup as base, all references to Tac Missile was replaced with Heavy Gun due to the restrictions against Austria having guided weapons. No Airborne, nor Special Ops: We figured the special operation types they do have are more along the lines of the Rangers.

Wartime skill picks was however allowed to take up to 2 points in Tac Missile: Be it from hands on training with captured equipment, or formal training by the German Army.

Obviously, No Navy or Marine paths.

Personal Weapons:

Using at the time only what was published, this is what we used.

GB80
MPi69
Steyr SSG069
Steyr AUG (And Variants - we had a house rule that for 400 bucks (S/-), you can pick up the parts to convert from Carbine, to Rifle, to LMG - 2kg)
MG3
M3 Carl Gustav.


Just my 3 cents from playing many a campaign in the area.

[Tegyrius]

Cool. A GM could use such a table to roll for faction vehicles or random encounters, or PC vehicles, or whatever. Mind if I include it in the sourcebook I'll give you a shout-out in the credits.

Go for it! That's sorta why I offered it up.

I'd like to include an Italian vehicles table too, since the Italians spent at least a year, in force, in Austrian territory. Paul's given me permission to link to his site for purposes of the sourcebook.

Excellent. I'd included the links to his site for our internal reference, but hotlinking the stats from the main document will improve usability.

I just got an Osprey Men-at-Arms book on the Hussite Wars and came across a nugget that I'm going to incorporate in the New Hussite faction write up.

Before he died of a variant of the plague, General Zizka, the blind, undefeated Hussite military leader, asked that his skin be turned into a war drum so that he could continue to lead his troops into battle after his passing. It is unlikely that this dying wish was actually fulfilled. Nevertheless, my Huss II is going to claim to possess this drum, further asserting that it will make his rag-tag "army" invincible.

That is amazingly creepy. I'm sold.

- C.

[Olefin]

One thing to keep in mind for the sourcebook is how big the US presence was in the Austria. According to the US Vehicle Guide the whole US 4th Army, consisting of two corps was based in Austria for much of the war.

That includes the 1st Armored, 43rd Infantry, 70th Infantry, 35th Mechanized Infantry, 1-40th Mechanized Infantry, and the 107th Armored Cav Regiment plus the HQ's for the Army and two Corps. Thats a very large US contingent for such a small area - and very well could mean that many US troops stayed behind or deserted in Austria over the course of the war or when the Going Home orders were given, instead of just the canon mentioned 1-40th at Salzburg.

The 107th now considers itself part of the German Army and you could see it playing a role in the future of Austria as the Germans begin to drive the Russians out in early 2001 as Russian units start to fall apart and go home or turn bandit. Also the personnel of both the Army and one of the Corps HQ stayed in Europe, and again could play a part in the future of Austria.

Especially if those Americans, due to their long stay, now see Austria as their future home or have found Austrian wives or husbands.

Thus you could see a lot of American deserters and marauders here operating either against the Soviets or trying to carve out their own little empires, especially after Going Home as well as lots of American equipment either abandoned, captured or given to units in the area.

Also several of the German units in the area may have US soldiers in them who decided to join them instead of Going Home, especially those with Austrian loved ones.

You could also see the Germans and remaining American officers trying to get the 70th rejoin the fold and join them in trying to free Austria.

A further wildcard could be the Civ Gov units in Yugoslavia. If they decide that they have had enough, they may try to move to the north to join up with the NATO units in Germany and the few US units that have stayed behind as part of the German Army. You could have CIA agents from there trying to gather supplies in Austria for those units as well.

[boogiedowndonovan]

good thread and good work Rae,

just a few comments I would like to add

Before the Steyr AUG, the Austrian Army used a locally produced variant of the FN-FAL called the Sturmgewehr 58 (StG 58). Wikipedia says that it was replaced in 1977 but some units used it up until 1985. I would assume that some would remain in armories and return to use in T2k.

The Austrian Armed Forces had a navy up until 2006. Well, more accurately a Naval Squadron of....2 patrol boats, 2 officers and 30 men. The patrol boats were used on the Danube River. Pirates of the Danube anyone Anyone know if the Naval Squadron could have escaped up the Danube to Germany

Austrian Special Forces are called JagdKommando. From the Wikipedia description, it sounds like they are Ranger equivalent. The Austrian Ministry of the Interior operates a counter terrorism unit called Einsatzkommando Cobra.

M47 tanks apparently went out when Austria acquired the M60A1 It doesn't show any M47 in the Austrian Army inventory on the 1989 orbat. copy of just the Austrian Army and Air Force portion is below.

Steyr, Austria is apparently a major industrial center and in T2k is occupied by the Warsaw Pact. Steyr-Daimler-Puch and associated industries, Steyr Mannlicher (maker of Steyr AUG and other firearms), Steyr Truck, Steyr Tractor and Steyr Motors are based there. Possibly, the Soviets are still using the facilities to repair vehicles and equipment. Maybe a prototype ASCOD or two is in the local Soviet garrison motorpool. Or maybe some now dead Steyr Mannlicher employees were able to spirit away some leftover Advanced Combat Rifles left over from the US Army Advanced Combat Rifle trials.

I'm intrigued by the 70th ID, mainly because the US Vehicle Guide shows 2000 men and no AFVs, but Going Home shows the 70th ID with 2000 men and 6 AFVs. I am sure it was an oversight by GDW, but an interesting story could be created as to how the 70th ID aquired the 6 AFVs in the span of 2-3 months, as well as why the 70th ID left Austria and is in Ulm, Germany "no longer accepting orders".

War Drum made of human skin...morbid but cool in a game sense.

[Raellus]

Thanks for the info, Boogie. I like the idea of the Soviets rebuilding Austrian vehicles in Steyr. I'll also make sure to throw a few SG 58s into the mix.

I'm sure that some of Austria's tiny Danube navy could have escaped. I'm not sure how much good it would have done in opposing the Soviet invasion, or how many resources the PACT would have dedicated to its destruction.

I used the 'Schlangenfresser' (Snake Eater) nickname for the JagdKommandos in homage to an old Cold-War elite forces uniform book I've had since I was 12.

I'm still thinking about how to handle the matter of the fighting in Austria between the summer and late autumn of 2000.

@Panther Al: Thanks for the char-gen notes. I would add an Austrian PC a skill point or two in mountaineering/climbing as well. Do you mind if I use your char-gen framework for the sourcebook You would, of course, receive a credit for its creation.

[Olefin]

I'm intrigued by the 70th ID, mainly because the US Vehicle Guide shows 2000 men and no AFVs, but Going Home shows the 70th ID with 2000 men and 6 AFVs. I am sure it was an oversight by GDW, but an interesting story could be created as to how the 70th ID aquired the 6 AFVs in the span of 2-3 months, as well as why the 70th ID left Austria and is in Ulm, Germany "no longer accepting orders".

I could think of several ways - could be that they scrounged enough spare parts by cannibalizing several old wrecks to get seven vehicles operational. In this case they could be a mix of Soviet, Austrian, Italian and American tanks (AFV are tanks in game terms by the way)

Or possibly they absorbed a remnant unit that had tanks of its own - i.e. Germans or Austrian forces, possibly even renegade Italians or Czechs who joined the US unit.

[Panther Al]

Thanks for the info, Boogie. I like the idea of the Soviets rebuilding Austrian vehicles in Steyr. I'll also make sure to throw a few SG 58s into the mix.

I'm sure that some of Austria's tiny Danube navy could have escaped. I'm not sure how much good it would have done in opposing the Soviet invasion, or how many resources the PACT would have dedicated to its destruction.

I used the 'Schlangenfresser' (Snake Eater) nickname for the JagdKommandos in homage to an old Cold-War elite forces uniform book I've had since I was 12.

I'm still thinking about how to handle the matter of the fighting in Austria between the summer and late autumn of 2000.

@Panther Al: Thanks for the char-gen notes. I would add an Austrian PC a skill point or two in mountaineering/climbing as well. Do you mind if I use your char-gen framework for the sourcebook You would, of course, receive a credit for its creation.

Go for it. As to the mountaineering/climbing in basic Good idea. At least one point there.