Methanol Production

[mikeo80]

I had a lot of twigs and small branches come down during some of the recent windstorms. I went out and worked for about an hour cleaning this crap up As I was doing this, I started to think. (Please get the women and children to the lifeboats! )

My thoughts wandered into methanol. Small twigs and branches strike me as excellent fodder for a still. I know that they would have to chopped up a lot finer than I did.

I guess that I cleaned up 10-15 Kg of trash in the hour I worked. A small still in T2K needs 30 Kg of crap a day to keep running. (V2.2, Pg 59)

So, 2 - 3 hours of gathering, an hour of prep, and the still is happy. For today. You have to do this again tomorrow.

Any thoughts or comments on my math are welcome.

My $0.02

Mike

[.45cultist]

Depends on how much "sugar" is in the material. Perhaps one might mix in flowers or cornstalks. A maple might be enough.

[kato13]

Unfortunately the game designers got methanol totally wrong.

Using basic methods you can only extract 20 liters of methanol from 1000kg of wood. (Plasma gassification would be a non-"basic" method)

From wood you could make ethanol if you have sulfuric acid to break down the cellulose or have cellulose metabolizing yeast (something they are only just working on now).

More discussion here.

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.phpt=226

[mikeo80]

Unfortunately the game designers got methanol totally wrong.

Using basic methods you can only extract 20 liters of methanol from 1000kg of wood. (Plasma gassification would be a non-"basic" method)

From wood you could make ethanol if you have sulfuric acid to break down the cellulose or have cellulose metabolizing yeast (something they are only just working on now).

More discussion here.
http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.phpt=226

With that being said, just what the heck are the vehicles in T2K going to run on

If Methanol is not productive, ethanol is great, except most of the grain or beets or potatoes that exist in Europe are going into peoples stomachs, Petroleum is a dream from a lifetime ago.

So, any ideas what could be used

My $0.02

Mike

[kato13]

In 2007 scientists came up with a yeast that produced its own cellulose disrupting enzymes. You could always push that back 25 years and make ethanol production from cellulose take 50-100% longer than production from sugar.

In the real world the yeast has had issues but that is an easier magic wand to wave than ignoring some of the basic rules of chemistry and biology.

There really are not many other good options.

Biodiesel is too disruptive to food-stocks and high lipid algae is no where near ready for primetime.

[schnickelfritz]

If I remember right there is a method for converting used cooking greases/oils into crude biodiesel...the whole "My Jetta smells like freedom fries" thing. I would not expect it to run well in a more advanced diesel, but would expect it to run OK in a multifuel engine or older conventional diesel.

As long as you would have a number of restaurants/kitchens/rendering locations nearby, you probably could make a fair amount of it, at least in the context of a T2K 1998-2002.

-Dave

[Targan]

If I remember right there is a method for converting used cooking greases/oils into crude biodiesel...the whole "My Jetta smells like freedom fries" thing. I would not expect it to run well in a more advanced diesel, but would expect it to run OK in a multifuel engine or older conventional diesel.

All you need to add is lye (sodium hydroxide) and methanol. The rest of the process is simple, blending and gentle heating. Problems include: biodiesel made with cooking greases and oils becomes thick and goopy in cold weather; biodiesel made using those ingredients will damage natural rubber hoses and seals used in older engines; it has a fairly short shelf life (weeks to months at best).

[kato13]

All you need to add is lye (sodium hydroxide) and methanol.

You can use ethanol for this step as well but it needs to be above the 96% purity that you can get from normal distillation. A molecular sieve or zeolites would be needed for that.

[.45cultist]

what about the WWII era "gasifiers" that used wood chips. otherwise someone's gonna have a mowhawk and leather out in the wastes.

[.45cultist]

Refining is over 100 years old, they used to discard gasoline because it had no use(before engines). I wonder if a good reference book might be had for RW and gaming

[stormlion1]

what about the WWII era "gasifiers" that used wood chips. otherwise someone's gonna have a mowhawk and leather out in the wastes.

Isn't that just making Methanol As for the gasifiers themselves...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_gas_generator

Not the best source, but gets the point across.

[kato13]

Isn't that just making Methanol As for the gasifiers themselves...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_gas_generator

Not the best source, but gets the point across.

Small amounts of methanol would be produced but the bulk of the energy would come from hydrogen and methane.

[schnickelfritz]

Looking for articles or material on refining in a primitive setting

Try this...I'm a model railroader when I'm not thinking T2K, and T2K was what I thought of first when I saw this originally.

A copy might be had of this issue at your local library.

http://mrr.trains.com/how-to/tips-projects/2012/06/build-an-1880s-oil-refinery

This seems ideal...the tools/technology needed seems to be at least as backwards as would be needed in a T2K setting of 1999-2004.

If you could get oil to the surface, you could make something resembling gas and diesel here in limited quantities. Limited quantities are better than nothing.

My guess is that older cars and trucks would run better on the gas.

You could probably tie this in with the Challenge article "Pennsylvania Crude".

-Dave

[.45cultist]

Thanks, another rewarding thread!

[Cdnwolf]

Try this...I'm a model railroader when I'm not thinking T2K, and T2K was what I thought of first when I saw this originally.

http://mrr.trains.com/how-to/tips-projects/2012/06/build-an-1880s-oil-refinery

You could probably tie this in with the Challenge article "Pennsylvania Crude".

-Dave

Cool... what scale do you use. I am doing a N scale setup.