Weapon Wear Values

[Raellus]

In my current T2K PbP, the PCs recently captured a marauder group's MG3 machinegun and have just turned it on its previous owners. I decided that the weapon has been in combat service for about three years, with only basic field maintenance during that time, and hasn't had a barrel replacement for over a year. This to me, strongly suggests that the barrel is close to worn out, and accuracy would be affected to some degree. My problem is that I don't know to what degree and how to adjudicate this using the rules.

Weapons,despite the reputation of the venerable and ubiquitous AK series, are not indestructable and they won't last forever. AFAIK, however, T2K game rules (versions 1 through 2.2, at least) do not take weapon wear into account in any sort of quatifiable way. For example, a worn out barrel will reduce a weapon's accuracy- the greater the wear, the greater the degree of inaccuracy. Modern firearms often have quite a few parts and if one or more of those parts fail, the weapon will cease to function properly (if at all) and/or, in some cases, become a danger to whoever is attemtping to use it.

The T2K rules deal with wear on vehicles; why not firearms Seems weapons wear rules would also make the gunsmithing skill a lot more useful as well.

I have a couple ideas on how to handle firearms wear but I'm interested to read if/how others deal with it. Do any of you have any rules on how wear affects a firearm's funcionality and accuracy How would you handle the situation that I described.

Thanks.

P.S. If someone cites a page number where the published rules deal specifically with this very issue, I'm going to feel like a total boob.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

By my recollection of the rules, you're absolutely correct, there's nothing dealing with wear on anything other than vehicles.
Seems to be part of the larger issue where "wear & tear" from everyday use is mostly ignored in all the game systems I'm familiar with.

Way back, one of the guys I knew decided to use the vehicle wear rules for weapons, basically to modify the purchase/resale value of the weapon. He liked the idea, we didn't because it meant some extra book keeping.
In hindsight though, the extra book keeping was a quite trivial addition to keeping track of food, fuel and ammo.
I have used something related to this where I had all the general equipment using Wear Values. For every skill check using that equipment that resulted in a Critical Failure, the Wear Value was increased by one point. Once the Wear Value reached 10, the equipment was too worn for its purpose but might still have some use for other things e.g. rappelling rope was too worn for safe use but it could still be used to tie down a tarpaulin.
Special circumstances could also increase the Wear Value, e.g. a backpack partially singed by a fire would get a one point increase, if it was partially burnt it would receive a two point increase. If it was actually hauled out of a fire it would automatically be set to Wear value 10 (the damage causing a loss of overall integrity blah blah blah).

I did this because I think for any post-apocalypse setting, a wear value for items enhances the sense of decay that supposed to be portrayed.

Enough waxing philosophic... rules for weapon wear could go something like this: -
1. All weapons have a Wear Value just like vehicles (starts at 0 & ends at 10, a 0 Value indicating hardly any use/factory new while 10 indicates a weapon so badly worn it's probably not even useful for spare parts)
2. Wear Value affects cost like it does for vehicles
3. For every day (a full 24 hours for the purpose of book keeping) that a weapon is used in a combat situation without being maintained an increment of 0.1 is added to its Wear Value. Once this increment has gone from 0.9 to 1.0, the Wear Value of the weapon is increased by 1
4. The increment increase will be halted by proper maintenance of the weapon after it has been used (maybe it resets the increment climb back to zero perhaps)
5. A successful use of Gunsmithing can decrease the Wear Value by one full point. Outstanding success reduces the Value by two full points. A failure on a Gunsmithing test means the weapon was not repaired, a Critical Failure increases the Wear Value by one full point.
Special Weapons that are not stored properly when not in use incur the Wear Value increment but at a rate of 0.1 increase per full month. Exceptionally bad storage (such as being buried in damp soil or left near sea water without protection) increases the Wear increment by 0.1 per full week.

I must admit something of a dead end when it comes to incorporating barrel wear. I was thinking this would be something of a judgement call because of the volume of use a machinegun barrel gets compared to a combat rifle let alone a hunting rifle. Thinking again, it could be something like the Special rules listed above but along the lines of for every combat engagement were a barrel change did not take place, the Wear increment is increased by 0.1 point for the barrel. However, we'd still have to figure how this affects Small Arms Skill Checks.

You could even use Wear Value to influence the results of a weapon malfunction from a failed skill check. Using something like the rules mechanic for end of career/start of the war, a malfunction occurs and then the Player rolls 1d10. If the result is equal to/greater than the Wear Value, it's a minor malfunction. If the result is less than the Wear Value, it's a major malfunction (or even a breakage of some part in the weapon)

Everybody else, feel free to critique, the more feedback and ideas we can get, the better rules set we can devise.

[Badbru]

I like all of SSC's answer it's similar to what I implemented in a TNE game I ran. TNE has more or less identical wear value rules from memory so I added them to all equipment and weapons. Again as with SSC's example, not so much to punnish accuracy but more for buying selling and trading.

For accuracy however it seems to me there'd be two ways to approach it.

First the wear value of the weapon could simply be added to the "To Hit" roll so needing to get 12 or less on a D20 roll with a wear 5 weapon actually means you need to roll 7 or less.
or
Since accuracy is closely tied to range as a mechanic of the game you could reduce the base range by the wear value, or some factor x the wear value.
It requires a few more calculations but only when the wear value is determined and is not as harsh a penalty as option one. I'd suggest reduce base range by wear value for pistol calibers wear value x2 for intermediate calibers 5.45 5.56 7.62s etc and wear value x3 for full rifle and large calibers 7.62N and 7.62L 30.06 etc.

[Raellus]

I like both of your ideas, SSC and Bru. I was already thinking about knocking down the range bands for weapons with worn out barrels and the idea of assigning wear values for weapons could work. I like the suggestion of adding wear points for catastrophic die roll failures. It'll mean some more bookkeeping for me, but it shouldn't be too difficult to keep track of.

I just know that firearms can only handle so many rounds before components start to fail, and it's not realistic to have well-worn weapons continue to function flawlessly for years on end. This needs to be reflected in games and it's also important for post-T2K world building, or any post-apoc game/setting really.

[leonpoi]

Good idea. I'd suggest adapting the vehicle wear rules.

Something like this but maybe the flow/logic could be changed a bit:


Can adapt the vehicle rules:

* On a critical failure (perhaps a 20 on the to-hit roll) roll a d10

* If the result is <= wear value then the weapon has a Jam

* A Jam does not mean the weapon has actually suffered a serious malfunction. Avoiding a serious malfunction is a task (Difficult: Small Arms or Gunsmith) performed by the character who did the last maintenance on the weapon.
* A jam requires one full combat turn to clear. Clearing a jam is Average: Small Arms

*


Serious malfunction

* The current wear value of the weapon is the D10 roll for the chance of a major breakdown. Else it is a minor breakdown
* Major Breakdown =
* Minor Breakdown =



* After a weapon has suffered 10 serious malfunctions, its wear value is increased by 1. A weapon with a wear value of 10 which suffers its tenth malfunction at that
value is no longer repairable, and is good only for salvaging parts.
* A Difficult Gunsmith test can be used to Repair a weapon - use something similar to the vehicle rules

[Bullet Magnet]

It may add to the bookkeeping, but I was thinking maybe after a set number of rounds fired ("Damn, gotta bring my rifle in for its 3,000 round tuneup soon."), the wear value might go up, unless the weapon in properly maintained by someone with Gunsmithing skill.

It's just a thought.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

NOTE: I'm referencing 2.0 / 2.2 edition rules throughout.

Overall I'm liking the idea of this, I think the drop in range due to excessive wear is a good idea but I think it should also give a reduced accuracy so that a really "clapped out" weapon is something a knowledgeable person would only use as a last resort. While everybody can look at a firearm and see if it's been treated badly and can even tell if some parts are worn, it really takes a Gunsmith to know if it's bad (thus further enhancing the Gunsmith skill in game).
I am leaning towards the incorporation of both Badbru's ideas as the one mechanic for Wear and its effects on firearms.


I'm thinking that Wear Value should also be assigned to Body Armour but with a much simpler implementation. The idea being that after every X number of hits (or alternately, after X amount of damage is accumulated), the Wear Value increases by 1 full point.

Effects would be that for Melee Combat, at Wear Value 5+ it only absorbs half the listed Melee Damage and at 10 it's too worn to stop any Melee Damage.
For projectiles of all kinds, I have an idea that is easy to incorporate but seems kind of harsh... if a projectile penetrates worn armour then it does a small amount of additional damage. The more worn out the armour, the more damage.
Starting at Wear Value 2 the damage is just +1 to the total rolled in the weapons damage dice. At Wear Value 3 it's +2 etc. etc. until Wear Value 10 is admitting another +9 points of damage.

This does negate the loss of Damage Dice that armour gives according to the rules but then, that's the entire point - worn out armour does not stop damage. The loss of Damage Dice would still be implemented as this makes the less worn out armour more valuable for protection.
Armour at Wear Value 10 might be enough to protect you from some of the lower powered handguns but it should be next to useless for protection against everything else.


I think that although these ideas increase the Player and Ref's book keeping, they would enhance the feeling of everything breaking down. I also think it adds to the overall game in that it becomes another part of what the PCs are doing, that is, the search for decent weapons and armour becomes as important as the search for food and fuel.
Again, these are up for debate so feel free to dismantle them!

[Targan]

I'm waiting for our resident RL gunsmith Brother in Arms to chime in on this discussion. I think he'd have some really good info on just how much accuracy is lost due to a heavily worn barrel.

[pmulcahy11b]

This would really apply to weapons like the M16EZ and the shot-out AK-47s the Russians gave to their Mobilization-Only troops.

[WallShadow]

dumb question, as in &quot;here comes another one...&quot;

Perhaps this might be pie-in-the-sky thinking by one who has little understanding about the process, but, given a source of chromium and the right components (solutions, source of electricity, etc) how hard/practical would it be to chrome-plate the bore and other surfaces of a firearm to a. reduce wear, and b. restore some worn-down surface Would this offset the "shooting down the lands" of a shot-out barrel, assuming a touch-up on the bore was done, and the barrel re-chromed

[Targan]

I'm no expert but my guess is that re-chroming a barrel wouldn't return any accuracy, it would just slow down further wear.

[Raellus]

@Targan: Does Gunmaster have any rules on firearm wear as it might pertain to accuracy and/or system failures


I'd like to factor weapon maintenance into this too. If a PC spends adequate time on cleaning his/her weapon, it shouldn't wear out quite as fast or malfunction quite as much as a neglected weapon likely would.

So, we need to take into account:

1. Accumulated wear and tear and its effects on accuracy.
2. Accumulated wear and tear contributing to system malfunctions.
3. Routine care and maintenance mitigating any/all of the above.
4. Gunsmithing skill checks to repair damaged firearms.
5. Gunsmithing skil checks to improve accuracy of firearms.

This is getting complicated, but I think that creating a practical game mechanic for this stuff is a good idea. I don't want it to get too crunchy- after all, as a GM, I've got to keep track of most of this stuff- but it's an important piece of versimilitude that I think a proper, realistic post-apoc game needs. Heck, I think even the Fallout series of video games has a system to address these inter-related issues.

[Targan]

@Targan: Does Gunmaster have any rules on firearm wear as it might pertain to accuracy and/or system failures

My books are all packed away but from memory the relevant firearm stats would be Weapon Quality (WQ) and Inherent Accuracy (IA). I'm hazy on Bill Gant's rules for firearms deterioration if any (haven't played for some years now) but those two weapon stats gave me the basis for house rules we used. Poor maintenance/number of rounds through the barrel/damage to the weapon etc could reduce WQ and that in turn could reduce IA.

Alot of it came down to common sense. My players were pretty ok with a consensus on how a weapon's accuracy and reliability would be affected by wear and tear, use and damage. WQ x 5 would be used as a basis for a kind of "saving throw" (maybe positively modified by firearm skill or gunsmith skill and further modified by situational factors as determined by the GM) to determine whether a weapon's IA decreased due to wear/damage.

[Brother in Arms]

So I guess the question would be how much has the gun been shot

MG-42 type firearms have very high rate of fire which can cause much more than average barrel wear. They also have a quick change barrel which solves the problem of barrel wear effectively.

The thing that is different with machine guns is accuracy is a relative term. The point of an MG is to have dispersion and not pin point accuracy.

You could shoot a machine gun till the rifling was totally worn out and it would still function though the bullets would lose a lot of energy due to the gas passing around them.

Chromium helps slow down wear and corrosion. But repairing a shot out barrel isn't really an option. Other parts can also wear out but the MG-42 parts wise is pretty reliable. That being said heat can damage anything specifically extractor claw and springs.

I guess I am not really sure what you want to know.

[Brother in Arms]

Did you ever come up with weapons wear rules

Thanks
BIA