To Fortify? That is the question...

[Raellus]

I prefer a dry moat/berm wall over fencing. A chain-link fence is not much of a barrier. It's really not much more than symbolic. A station wagon could plow right through it; it wouldn't trouble a small team with wire cutters much either. Unless it was well covered by fire, it's not going to stop any but the lazy and least determined.

In general, human-power is going to be the primary means of excavating/earth moving in a T2K environment. If it means protection from existential threats, most local citizens would be willing to contribute to some sort of defense works project. This is really the basis of the neo-feudalism that I anticipate would be prevalent in a T2K world. You wouldn't even necessarily need motorized excavating equipment- just picks and shovels- I'm sure you've seen pics of Soviet babushkas digging AT ditches on the approaches to Moscow. A motorized excavator would be a luxury that many communities would not have. Those that did, however, would be able to complete defense works projects much more quickly efficiently. Such equipment could serve as a form of currency in a T2KU and securing said excavators could make a side quest for a community-building campaign.

Another option for creating walls/barricades is derelict motor vehicles. Tow or push them into position for a simple barrier. If one had to the means to stack them, you could create a more effective obstacle.

You might want to consider a hybrid with a little of every method mentioned so far. Chain link facing the marsh, a moat/berm along the most approachable part of the perimeter, wrecked cars for half-a-mile on another side, and a couple of shipping container redoubts with guard towers at intervals all along the perimeter.

[WallShadow]

With all this discussion of chain link, what has not been mentioned is using the chain link as gabion material--forming baskets out of the fencing, lining the baskets with say, old carpet, and filling the lined baskets with rubble to form building blocks of a fortification. Use a tripod lever arm to maneuver the baskets into place and Voila! a rubble/gravel wall.

[rcaf_777]

Like a poor man's Hesco bastion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesco_bastion

Could also use Gabion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabion

Or Sandbags

[kalos72]

All good information...

But would YOU put some sort of physical wall/obstacle around the entire outside of your towns if able Thinking along the 25 miles long mark....

The 43rd MP did...

[CDAT]

All good information...

But would YOU put some sort of physical wall/obstacle around the entire outside of your towns if able Thinking along the 25 miles long mark....

The 43rd MP did...

If I had the ability, in a post disaster world YES!

[kato13]

According to this

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/5-102/Ch6.htm#s3

a trench 40233.6 Meters (25 miles) by 1.5 meters by 3.5 meters would take 2 M9 ACE 603.504 hours to complete.

Since the formulas are for anti tank ditches I would assume that number would go higher if you are on anything other than smooth ground.

Base fuel usage for the M9 (109 per period*), two of them working for 603.5 hours would be ~32891 liters of diesel.

* Source: http://www.pmulcahy.com/tracked_engi...les/us_tev.htm

[kalos72]

Without giving up too much data...

32k diesel is roughly one days production at this point in the story line...I am ok with that.

The next questions is manpower.

What good is a fence that isnt patrolled or monitored

Assume a guard tower every 500-1000 meters over 25 miles would be 40-80 towers. Two people per tower at all times Thats like 100-150 people per shift...3-4-5 shifts And that will not count active patrols within the perimeter or at guard posts/gate guards and such.

Ouch.

[weswood]

I don't know about Victoria, but a lot of major cities have a "loop" freeway around the central city. Houston has Loop 610, San Antonio has the 410 Loop, and if I remember New Orleans has one also.

If the town in question has a loop, block off on/off ramps, clear the loop itself for patrol vehicles. A few checkpoints/entrances at underpasses.

[weswood]

I don't know about Victoria, but a lot of major cities have a "loop" freeway around the central city. Houston has Loop 610, San Antonio has the 410 Loop, and if I remember New Orleans has one also.

If the town in question has a loop, block off on/off ramps, clear the loop itself for patrol vehicles. A few checkpoints/entrances at underpasses.

[stormlion1]

All true, but citys will be death traps so fortifying them is just a slow wait for the food to run out. Fortifying a town in the countryside is easier especially if the terrain helps or you control the roads and the fields. Fortify the town itself and set up manned roadblocks and near any power stations or food producing areas set up a firebase to respond if there is trouble. That and patrols, lots of patrols. Might be easier than digging the ditch from heck and putting up a wall and then having to man it.

[Brother in Arms]

I had a game once were a cantonment had a earthen work wall ( not actual facines and gabbions but hulks of cars and the like covered in earth and turf) that was topped by a dry stacked stone wall.

The citizens of the Canton would punish those convicted of crimes to mend the wall. In some lesser cases ( like a character getting drunk and fighting) they were sentenced to this hard labor for a period of time (several weeks)and then they reintegrated into society they were given slight rations but unlimited water. However serious criminals like thieves,rapist, murderers were sentencing more harshly. Like when a group of marauders tried to infiltrate the wall and failed. Foolishly they surrendered and were caught by the citizen of the canton. These unfortunate souls were sentenced to build the wall till death. So they were forced to do hard labor staking stones until they dropped dead from starvation. They were given plenty of water to drink but never given food. Several tried to injure themselves so they couldn't stack stones and if that happened or they got too weak from starvation they were beaten to death by the cantons security force and there body over the wall.

in other instances the wall was used when refugees came from the outside and wanted to become a citizen of the canton. They were sentenced to mend the wall for a period of time and earned there food and water by stacking stones, as well as extracting the stones from fields. After a period of this labor they earned there citizen ship. If for some reason you couldn't work on the wall you may be sentenced to work in another form of labor. One instance I remember in particular were a soldier had a consensual encounter with a young woman, but she got pregnant and her parents did not approve. He was sentenced to mend the wall and then was forced to leave the canton. But she was sentenced to work in a hemp field until the day she gave birth.

Brother in Arms

[stormlion1]

I had a game once were a cantonment had a earthen work wall ( not actual facines and gabbions but hulks of cars and the like covered in earth and turf) that was topped by a dry staked stone wall.

The citizens of the Canton would punish those convicted of crimes to mend the wall. In some lesser cases ( like a character getting drunk and fighting) they were sentenced to this hard labor for a period of time (several weeks)and then they reintegrated into society they were given slight rations but unlimited water. However serious criminals like thieves,rapist, murderers were sentencing more harshly. Like when a group of marauders tried to infiltrate the wall and failed. Foolishly they surrendered and were caught by the citizen of the canton. These unfortunate souls were sentenced to build the wall till death. So they were forced to do hard labor staking stones until they dropped dead from starvation. They were given plenty of water to drink but never given food. Several tried to injure themselves so they couldn't stack stones and if that happened or they got too weak from starvation they were beaten to death by the cantons security force and there body over the wall.

in other instances the wall was used when refugees came from the outside and wanted to become a citizen of the canton. They were sentenced to mend the wall for a period of time and earned there food and water by stacking stones, as well as extracting the stones from fields. After a period of this labor they earned there citizen ship. If for some reason you couldn't work on the wall you may be sentenced to work in another form of labor. One instance I remember in particular were a soldier had a consensual encounter with a young woman, but she got pregnant and her parents did not approve. He was sentenced to mend the wall and then was forced to leave the canton. But she was sentenced to work in a hemp field until the day she gave birth.

Brother in Arms

I have to ask, where was this Canton located

[Brother in Arms]

The Canton was located in Northern New Hampshire in Clarksville. And it was on the sight on an old hippy commune that had been in existence from 1970-till about 1999. The location is real, but I know nothing about the commune other than it had a large yellow farm house and a giant wreath made of fir boughs in the shape of a peace sign. It had been there so long it had long turned orange and there were tons of derelict vehicles (like a old dodge power wagon and a turquoise Toyota land cruiser). There were always lots of long haired barefoot children playing in the yard and a rather large contingent of women varying in age from there early teens to 20 and 30 somethings along with a few as old as there late 50's. They had organic fields and various types of out door and primitive conveniences.

Seemed like a logical place for a canton to exist.

Brother in Arms

[stormlion1]

Just curious. The mention of rocks (I live in Jersey, no rocks) and hemp fields caught my attention.

[Brother in Arms]

You can pretty much grow hemp in any climate. In the game it was being grown primarily for hemp seed from which to make hemp seed oil which was used for food and fuel. Secondarily it was being grown to make rope and fabric which was fairly back breaking work.

There was also a sector of the field that specifically for Marijuana and it proved to be a very valuable trade item.

Brother in Arms