Twilight2013 starting equipment scarcity

[adimar]

I am about to start a new twilight 2013 game.
And am going over the starting equipment rules. These state that each character can have up to his emergency load of stuff.
My main problem with this is that it doesn't take into account the consumables rarity.
i.e. The book mentions how consumables like small arms ammo, batteries & canned foods become very rare (not to mention things like antibiotics, heavy weapons ammo and survival rations)

I was thinking of applying a penalty to the starting cost in terms of weight allowance of rare equipment (also as a guideline to barter price).
Rare stuff: (x5 weight/price)
small arms ammo, canned goods, MRE, trauma plates, biodiesel, alcohol fuel
Very rare stuff (x10 weight/price)
heavy weapons ammo(anything over 7.62), antibiotics, survival rations, batteries, gasoline
It's weight in gold (x20 weight/price)
guided munitions

anyway you get the idea. How does this sound
How did you handle this issue in your game.

Adi

[Brother in Arms]

Nothing wrong with limiting items by increasing the cost.

What about other things that are super common to us today but totally worth money after shit collapses. I guess they would be considered luxury items. Here are a few things that can be pretty sought after.


Smokeless tobacco "chew,dip,snuff "(especially popular with U.S. forces)
Cigarettes
Bic Lighters
Alcohol
Condoms
Hand Sanitizer
Baby wipes
Birth control pills (can be so women have no period)
Tampons (can be used to plug bullet holes)
Sanitary napkins(can be used as bandaged)
Quick clot
Latex Gloves
Chewing gum
100 mile per hour tape(duct tape)
5 hour Energy Shots
No doze
CLIFF Bars
Gatorade powder
Protein Powder
Beef Jerky


That is all that comes to mind at the moment..

[StainlessSteelCynic]

<snip>
Very rare stuff (x10 weight/price)
heavy weapons ammo(anything over 7.62),
<snip>

I think you can afford to adjust the weapons ammo up to anything over Soviet 14.5mm but keeping special ammo like .338 Lapua for the next category given the small number of .338 weapons in service.
There's so many Browning M2 and DShK HMGs in service around the world that ammo for them is likely to be almost as common as 7.62mm - although special marksman/sniping ammo of these same calibres should be treated like the .338 example above.
Even the 14.5mm KPV is relatively common given it's use as armament on Soviet/WarPac armoured vehicles but more so because of its use for AA protection on both land and sea amongst WarPac and Soviet client states.

[stormlion1]

Just curious, where are you starting from Europe Asia North America Things like these effect what you have access to when everything went to hell.

[adimar]

Just curious, where are you starting from Europe Asia North America Things like these effect what you have access to when everything went to hell.

I'm trying to decide between a classic European & middle-east campaigns. Being Israeli (IRL) I think my players might get a kick by having the playing environment be their own back yards.

Adi

[Brother in Arms]

I'm in agreement with SSC

.50 BMG (12.7x99MM NATO) wouldn't be too hard to come buy given the amount of M2 HB machine guns there are out there. As well as anti-material rifles (even personally owned ones here in the U.S.) You will find it in common use with all NATO units. Especially if any mechanized units are encountered.

12.7x108mm for DShk would also be common around the rest of the world especially 3rd world (not at all in the U.S. though)

14.5mm KPV (14.5x114mm) is very prevalent within the Russian military and ex warsaw pact and client states. And would also be in common use with mechanized units.

Any kind of sniper or MATCH ammo would be harder to find. .338 Lapua is a great example. But also 7.62x51mm NATO M118, or M118 LR.

I don't know about 7N1 or 7N14 for the Russian SVD. But it would definitely get shot up before they went to using machine gun ammo.

Food for guns (and thought)

Brother in Arms

[CDAT]

One more on how common .50BMG ammo is. My last deployment for our .50 we had ammo that was made in 1945, so if they still have ammo made then, and are also making new ammo there has got to be lots of it.

[Targan]

One more on how common .50BMG ammo is. My last deployment for our .50 we had ammo that was made in 1945, so if they still have ammo made then, and are also making new ammo there has got to be lots of it.

And the misfire rate on ammo that old was acceptably low

[adimar]

10x for your responses.
The problem I have with .50 cal and other semi heavy ammo is that it effectively ends the use of soft skinned vehicles.
I don't know a single player in my group who would not agree to pool his resources to get a .50 anti material rifle. Which has a negligible ammo consumption and use it without match ammo as a quick way to disable enemy positions/vehicles.
And while this is a game balance consideration it also needs to be looked on from the perspective of a resource management. A unit that has it's supplies of heavy weapons diminish would switch to using heavy ammo whenever it might have a chance to do some good. So this might increase the rate of .50 ammo to conserve anti tank missiles. I don't know what would be the net effect

Adi

[B.T.]

...
Chewing gun
...

Really

[Damocles]

anyway you get the idea. How does this sound
How did you handle this issue in your game.

Adi

Here's how it sounds to me: You have the whole game world to throw at them. They have one character with whatever crap they have in their pack. Now you are going to micromanage that It's an RPG game, not a hyper-realistic simulation of world economics following WW3.

[kato13]

It's an RPG game, not a hyper-realistic simulation of world economics following WW3.

If I pulled my last gaming team together again it would consist of
A HR director
A CEO/CTO of a tech company
A forensic accountant
A Mathematics professor
and 2 computer programmers.

I have gone on a few trips with these people and spreadsheets are the norm for planning ANYTHING. They would eat up the micromanagement aspect being discussed.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

10x for your responses.
The problem I have with .50 cal and other semi heavy ammo is that it effectively ends the use of soft skinned vehicles.
I don't know a single player in my group who would not agree to pool his resources to get a .50 anti material rifle. Which has a negligible ammo consumption and use it without match ammo as a quick way to disable enemy positions/vehicles.
And while this is a game balance consideration it also needs to be looked on from the perspective of a resource management. A unit that has it's supplies of heavy weapons diminish would switch to using heavy ammo whenever it might have a chance to do some good. So this might increase the rate of .50 ammo to conserve anti tank missiles. I don't know what would be the net effect

Adi

I don't see this as a problem.
For starters, you limit their access to such things as anti-material rifles and other high-end gear - it's the end of the Third World War, not a weapons trade show.
To be harsh and somewhat realistic, most soldiers would never see anti-material rifles during their military service let alone use one, they're typically the province of engineer EOD detachments or the special sniper teams and there really are not that many of them in service with any one army.
And besides all that, do the PCs actually have the skills or training to properly use one If not, you make all tasks with the unfamiliar weapon one or two levels harder until they have spent enough time learning this weapon. That should require firing dozen (if not hundreds) of rounds at a range and that will use up some of their hoarded goodies.

Even if you do decide to let them have something like the anti-material rifle, just like Damocles said, you have the entire game world to throw at them. Let the PCs have some easy kills at the start. Let them use up their .50 cal ammo on softskins.
Then when they run low, they still have to find someone who is selling ammo before they can replenish their supply and then they have to be able to afford whatever the local market price is for .50 cal ammo - and if the local head of the badguys has lost a few vehicles to a .50 cal, they might have decided to buy up all remaining stock or forbid local sales to strangers.

Later, you start introducing heavier armoured vehicles. The anti-material rifle with 500 rounds of ammo doesn't do much to kill a tank even if it can damage important parts. The players might start to learn that all that skimping on heavy weapons so they could have 500 rounds for their "big gun" doesn't do much good when facing off against three tanks and supporting infantry or three APCs and an attack helicopter, all sporting weapons with as much or longer range than the PCs weapons.

Ultimately, it does not matter what goodies the PCs have, as the GM you can always take it away and as long as it makes sense in the gameworld and is fair in the gameplay, they have nothing to complain about. Whether it's making them use all their ammo up on weak targets or restricting the amount available for resupply or having that particular ammo as a requirement for trade at the next settlement, as long as you are not seen as blatantly trying to take it away from them, you can restrict the special items the PCs have.

The whole point is to challenge them and so if they have an iron dagger made by the local blacksmith, you only make them face kobolds and wild dogs. When they get their first real sword, they end up facing some local bandits or a few orcs. Once they get their magical sword +1, they encounter a few organized brigands or a ghost that requires magical weapons to hit - you get the picture.
And every now and then you let them catch a glimpse of the bigger threat so that they feel the urgency to keep good equipment or get more effective weapons and so on. Let them see a dragon in the distance burning a village, the PCs will decide they need dragonslaying weapons and eventually you as GM will decide if you let them get some but you will also be the one who decides if they ever encounter a dragon.

[WallShadow]

The whole point is to challenge them and so if they have an iron dagger made by the local blacksmith, you only make them face kobolds and wild dogs. When they get their first real sword, they end up facing some local bandits or a few orcs. Once they get their magical sword +1, they encounter a few organized brigands or a ghost that requires magical weapons to hit - you get the picture.
And every now and then you let them catch a glimpse of the bigger threat so that they feel the urgency to keep good equipment or get more effective weapons and so on. Let them see a dragon in the distance burning a village, the PCs will decide they need dragonslaying weapons and eventually you as GM will decide if you let them get some but you will also be the one who decides if they ever encounter a dragon.

How much for case of "Holy Hand Grenades of Antioch" or the "+5 RPG of Tank-Slaying"

[adimar]

...The whole point is to challenge them and so if they have an iron dagger made by the local blacksmith, you only make them face kobolds and wild dogs...

This assumes that they are passive and just wait for me to throw stuff at them.
Like the classic dungeon crawl which is basically the players stand in a room and various monsters of varying power enter, introduce themselves and proceed to get butchered by the players.
I've been blessed/trained my players to be more proactive. It's a lot easier to GM when the players do a lot of the initiating by themselves and all you have to do, is improv. the world around them .
And I can honestly say that the vast majority of the plot lines don't even get started from my side of the table.
In such a situation having a wonder weapon with a practically unlimited amount of ammo (they wouldn't even bother shooting the thing at extreme ranges, since non of them are trained for it. They would just treat it as a cheap heavy weapon that can kill most of the semi hard obstacles .Especially with AP ammo which is just about universal for .50 cal)
There is a pretty much set in stone limit about how many tanks i can throw at them (suspension of disbelief...) .
Also I would be willing to bet that my players wouldn't even try to shoot these "dragons" but channel them into pre-prepared booby traps, concealed tank ditches (probably filled with water) and other "diabolical" and cheap killing methods.

Adi