US Army wants new hand gun

[mikeo80]

http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2014/07/03/army-wants-harder-hitting-pistol/intcmp=obnetwork

I read this article and had a serious attack of the giggles.

Please remind me of just what the hell was wrong with the Colt 1911

There are MANY references to one shot kills with 1911. In Philipenes, WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam.

My $0.02

Mike

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Ya know... the US Army seems to be using the same notion for a handgun replacement that they used when they did the advanced rifle trials - that is to say, they want a more lethal version of the weapon.
But they missed (or ignored) two points: -
1. that smallarms fire accounts for just a small percentage of enemy killed in 20th/21st century warfare, (most enemy casualties are caused by artillery & aerial bombing) - so as appealing as the idea is, a rifle more capable of both hitting and killing the enemy isn't quite as important as it would first appear.
2. most importantly, the stresses of combat drastically reduced the ability of the soldier to hit the target regardless of how lethal the rifle was.

It seems they are doing the same sort of thing here, ignoring very real information from the police community that says handguns just aren't a good way to stop a determined enemy and multiple hits on the target are often required.
Overall, the US Army should probably be spending more effort on increasing the soldiers' ability to cope with the stresses of combat (so that they are better at hitting the target) than spending money and time on finding a wonder weapon that is better at hitting the target because ultimately, the tired, stressed individual pulling the trigger has a much bigger impact on if they score a hit.

But that's bureaucratic process for you, it's cheaper to replace the weapon than it is to continually train soldiers...

[waiting4something]

The article points out some good points. However, in the long run its all about money. Sure pistol ammo might suck compared to rifle ammo, but unless you want your grip to be bigger then a Desert Eagle, what are you going do. It's a pistol. It's made as a back up weapon for the soldier, not a primary.

The biggest problem with pistols is no one really takes them that seriously. Either they don't get the care needed to them, or soldiers don't get the range time with them they should. If a soldier is only getting use out of his pistol two times a year for pistol qualification, how good can he or she be The military just doesn't have the funds to make avid great shooters. Even if they did they be more concerned that your SHARPS training is up to date.

[Panther Al]

I think I might have said this in another thread, but I just get a laugh out of it all.

Back, way back, in the day,

Then, the US was fighting Muslim Insurgents in the Philippines. Our standard pistol back then was a .36 calibre revolver. Well, it didn't cut the mustard. So, after trial and tribulation, we went with the .45ACP.

Now, we are fighting Muslim Insurgents in various parts of the world. Our standard pistol now is a .36 calibre automatic and yet again, we are looking at replacing it. The leading contender The .45ACP. Again.

Everyone keeps saying History never repeats itself, but I wish someone told history this so that it wouldn't!

[CDAT]

I think I might have said this in another thread, but I just get a laugh out of it all.

Back, way back, in the day,

Then, the US was fighting Muslim Insurgents in the Philippines. Our standard pistol back then was a .36 calibre revolver. Well, it didn't cut the mustard. So, after trial and tribulation, we went with the .45ACP.

Now, we are fighting Muslim Insurgents in various parts of the world. Our standard pistol now is a .36 calibre automatic and yet again, we are looking at replacing it. The leading contender The .45ACP. Again.

Everyone keeps saying History never repeats itself, but I wish someone told history this so that it wouldn't!

I remember when I first joined the Army back in the early 1990's even though the M1911A1 had been replaced for for years you still had units holding on to there 1911's fro as long as they could. My frist unit held on to theres tell 94 every unit that I know of wanted to keep them just rebuild them.

[stormlion1]

Simple solution, allow the soldiers to use the pistols of there choice. If they choose to use the standard issue pistol they get resupply for ammo and parts but if they choose a superior pistol there responsible for there own ammo supply. If I could have had my 45 when I was in, I would have and I would have gladly have taken care of the ammunition myself.

[Raellus]

Simple solution, allow the soldiers to use the pistols of there choice. If they choose to use the standard issue pistol they get resupply for ammo and parts but if they choose a superior pistol there responsible for there own ammo supply. If I could have had my 45 when I was in, I would have and I would have gladly have taken care of the ammunition myself.

I'd imagine that there would be some safety and liability issues with that. And, acquiring non-standard ammo in the field during combat ops might be difficult. And how would the army make sure that troops weren't loading ammo that didn't comply with the Geneva Conventions and all that jazz

[.45cultist]

Most people also will forget that pistols are like a first aid kit, when you need one you NEED one. The 1911 would mean egg on the face of command staff somewhere, so I see H&K in the future.

[stormlion1]

Not really, the gents who decided the 1911 had to go are long retired so I could see the younger generation who had the 1911 wanting them back because they used them and liked them.

[mikeo80]

A few things that come to my mind about pistols.

1) There were many vets of many wars who NEVER drew their pistol.

2) IF they did, it was an "OH S***" moment.

3) I, for one, will put up with a seven round clip in a 1911. The odds of using more than that are very small. Not impossible, just not likely. I want a round that when I shoot at the bad guy, he goes down. And STAYS down.

My $0.02

Mike

[.45cultist]

I'm in the return to the M1911 crowd, but use the "series 70" design, not the "series 80" the USMC did.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Unfortunately, the problem is, and will always be, the military needs a "one size fits all" handgun because not everyone meets the requirements for the M1911 (as in hand size and physical abilities to control the recoil).
And I totally agree with something waiting4something said earlier, the biggest problems with pistol use by the military, is that the soldiers rarely get enough practical training to be able to use them effectively.

It's the same problem some police forces here in Australia have, the officers carrying handguns on a daily basis only do three maybe four range shoots a year to keep their shooting "qualification". I think most would agree that you cannot maintain good shooting skills if you're only using live rounds for training two or three, or even four times a year.
So as I hinted at originally, I don't believe that any handgun the US Army selects is going to solve the perceived problem because the real problem is most likely that the soldiers are not getting enough effective training time with whatever handgun they have.

[Panther Al]

Simple solution, allow the soldiers to use the pistols of there choice. If they choose to use the standard issue pistol they get resupply for ammo and parts but if they choose a superior pistol there responsible for there own ammo supply. If I could have had my 45 when I was in, I would have and I would have gladly have taken care of the ammunition myself.

Yep - Allowing a soldier, with the permission of his Chain of Command, the ability to pick his own sidearm, and provide himself with his own ammo (After all, that used to be allowed way way back in the day) would prevent a hypothetical 3d ACR Trooper from sneaking a Kimber .45 into a hidey hole in his tank, along with a store of a few hundred rounds before it got shipped overseas, because he hates the mouse gun. It would have also prevented said trooper from having to hand it off to a deserving Marine who shared his belief in the 45, and promised to pass it on to another deserving soul when his time was up.

Of course, this is all Hypothetical, for I would never have been silly enough to buy a high quality 45 only to bring it on a one way trip.. against regs, where he could be busted so hard for doing so.


Nope.. not me.

*cough*

*cough* *cough*

[.45cultist]

Unfortunately, the problem is, and will always be, the military needs a "one size fits all" handgun because not everyone meets the requirements for the M1911 (as in hand size and physical abilities to control the recoil).
And I totally agree with something waiting4something said earlier, the biggest problems with pistol use by the military, is that the soldiers rarely get enough practical training to be able to use them effectively.

It's the same problem some police forces here in Australia have, the officers carrying handguns on a daily basis only do three maybe four range shoots a year to keep their shooting "qualification". I think most would agree that you cannot maintain good shooting skills if you're only using live rounds for training two or three, or even four times a year.
So as I hinted at originally, I don't believe that any handgun the US Army selects is going to solve the perceived problem because the real problem is most likely that the soldiers are not getting enough effective training time with whatever handgun they have.

The M1911 has an advantage over the newer pistols, all can change grip shape, the M1911 can change trigger length. The M9 had a higher bore axis, so it kicks more than it should. Plenty of small women compete with .45ACP M1911's which goes back to the comments on trigger time.

[Raellus]

So what make and model will get selected

http://bearingarms.com/army-wants-new-handgun-way-can-now/

Seems like wishful thinking to me. This company has neither the pedigree/track record or the manufacturing capacity to win and then fulfill a big government contract.

My money is on H&K. Their Mark 23 has been in use with US SOCOM for some time. I think the HK45 has a better than average shot at meeting the US military's criteria for a new service pistol.

Although the article slags Sig, their P250 in .45 ACP seems like a strong contender as well.

Both could be manufactured in the U.S.A.

What make and model do you guys think is a likely M9 replacement