Firefight ranges...

[Cdnwolf]

http://donaldmsensing.blogspot.ca/2003/06/infantry-rifle-combat-distances.htmlm=1

"Almost all interviewed stated all firefight engagements conducted with small arms (5.56mm guns) occurred in the twenty to thirty (20-30) meter range. Shots over 100m were rare. The maximum range was less than 300m. Of those interviewed, most sniper shots were taken at distances well under 300m, only one greater than 300m (608m during the day). After talking to the leadership from various sniper platoons and individuals, there was not enough confidence in the optical gear (Simrad or AN/PVS-10) to take a night shot under the given conditions at ranges over 300m. Most Marines agreed they would "push" a max range of 200 m.


YET...

Long-range Afghan firefights prompt US Army rethink of reliance on workhorse M-4 rifle

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/05/21/long-range-afghan-firefights-prompt-army-rethink-reliance-workhorse-m-rifle/

[Cdnwolf]

http://donaldmsensing.blogspot.ca/20...tances.htmlm=1

"Almost all interviewed stated all firefight engagements conducted with small arms (5.56mm guns) occurred in the twenty to thirty (20-30) meter range. Shots over 100m were rare. The maximum range was less than 300m. Of those interviewed, most sniper shots were taken at distances well under 300m, only one greater than 300m (608m during the day). After talking to the leadership from various sniper platoons and individuals, there was not enough confidence in the optical gear (Simrad or AN/PVS-10) to take a night shot under the given conditions at ranges over 300m. Most Marines agreed they would oepush a max range of 200 m.


YET...

Long-range Afghan firefights prompt US Army rethink of reliance on workhorse M-4 rifle

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/05...horse-m-rifle/

So the question to be asked is what range would you say most typical firefights in Twl2000 be best at.

[Tegyrius]

A couple of things jump out at me here.

First, the blog post cites AR15.com as a source. That's a red flag for me. In my experience, Arfcom has a highly unfavorable signal-to-noise ratio.

Second, the document cited in the Arfcom post seems to focus on Marine engagements in Iraq. I suspect (have not read the whole thing because of the complete bleeding lack of paragraph breaks) that this deals mainly with urban engagements. The Army concern, by comparison, are drawn from combat in Afghanistan. Of course you're going to see shorter engagement ranges in urban centers than in the Hindu Kush.

Finally, I suspect most roleplaying game gunfights are closer in nature to police shootings than military engagements. This is because combat in RPGs often breaks out as a result of failed negotiations or investigations, which by necessity occur at conversational distance. T2k is sometimes (but not always) an exception because of its military simulation functions.

- C.

[B.T.]

(...)
Finally, I suspect most roleplaying game gunfights are closer in nature to police shootings than military engagements. This is because combat in RPGs often breaks out as a result of failed negotiations or investigations, which by necessity occur at conversational distance. T2k is sometimes (but not always) an exception because of its military simulation functions.

Tegyrius' point reflects my experience as GM.
Whenever my players can influence a combat, they usually start shooting, when the enemy is in short range. Most of the PCs are armed with M16A2 with a short range of 55m. So they (stealthily) approach the enemy up to that range, or let the enemy's footwalkers get up to that "magic" distance. Shooting at vehicles is another issue depends on circumstance. When the PCs are armed with MGs and battle rifles, they use the short range of the rifle with the shortest short range (Sounds odd, hope you know what I mean ).

I think, in that respect T2k is a game and far from reality in some cases.

[Cdnwolf]

Basically what I am trying to get at is if I am doing up a map for roll20.net would 500m by 500m be feasible for an encounter Still trying to work out how to handle long distance movement on that system.

[unkated]

encounter area

500m x 500 m is probably good for most encounters. This will include a several city blocks, a small village, or a large area of country side.

For movement, you could do double or triple movement at first to close. I don't know if you have something that handles line of sight ranges, so that characters can select double or triple moves and then stop if and when they come to (or enter) visual range of ... something new. Like a vehicle or person or campfire or...

Once upon a time, when I ran naval miniatures (Harpoon), the rules suggested running at a longer scale until two tracks ran into sighting range, then backtrack and play it out from the point of contact. I usually ran the two sides into proximity before they ran together and then inched them into contact to avoid backtracking. Usually, I started by having the side provide general operating orders (until contact); for example "move at 85 degrees at 15 kn."

In your case, it could be something like "walk into town paralleling the road about 20m south.

Uncle Ted

[kcdusk]

In T2K if a party is known to be hostile, my group takes shots at the longest medium range (say 110m). This is because if the group shoots at short range (say 55m or less) then by the next turn the enemy (normally in greater numbers) can run 30m and almost be "on top of" the group, and swarm them.

So my group fires earlier to get a couple of rounds of firing into the enemy in case they try to close.

[Targan]

In T2K if a party is known to be hostile, my group takes shots at the longest medium range (say 110m). This is because if the group shoots at short range (say 55m or less) then by the next turn the enemy (normally in greater numbers) can run 30m and almost be "on top of" the group, and swarm them.

So my group fires earlier to get a couple of rounds of firing into the enemy in case they try to close.

So a normal encounter in your games involves highly disciplined/fanatical enemies that are prepared to charge into the PC's fire rather than find cover and return fire Hard core.

[kcdusk]

haha, umm, i think the enemy is normally fanatical rather than hard core! They want to close to use their clubs/bayonets/rocks!

[jester]

Who is Donald Sensing

As for the Fox article, it mentioned the use of the Brown Bess in the 1840s huh So the fact checkers failed, the article is now questionable

The article focused on US ranges for Western Europe or the urban areas of Iraq with some brief mention of A-stan.

I would like to see a discussion on the following:

1.) The doctrine of the units Roll in in armor, troops dismount and assault at close range Thus the M4s or Ivans AKs which almost all have folding stocks these days Which was Ivans Doctrine from post WWII into the 90s and is the US doctrine. Remember, equipment does reflect the intended use according to doctrine.

2.) Mission at the time of the close engagements Iraq, capturing the urban centers Urban means close combat so of course.

3.) Patrols in the towns and villages to show a presence Again you are now in the close quarters where if something happens it is up close and personal.

4.) WWII history in Western Europe Close fields, wooded areas, towns and villages Again, yep terrain dictates close range.....and what was the Armys doctrine on marksmanship Troops will do as they are trained, 300 or 200m is the range they train at, that is what they are going to engage or less. So the bar is lowered.

I would like to see similar data for Germans vs. Russian on the Eastern Front. Will the data be similar to the German vs. American data

Another doctrine issue that was mentioned, "RULES OF ENGAGEMENT." If the troops are not allowed to fire until fired upon, or have a full on positive ID of the target, not allowed to use supporting arms then yes the ranges will decrease.

And of course ENEMY DOCTRINE.

Lee vs. Grant, as Lee was highly mobile, Grant would as he put it, "Grab him by the belt buckle and not let go." Only then did the Confederates really start to loose.

Giap; Countering the Wests firepower, first the French and later the American, the NVA would close to such a distance that supporting fire can not be used safely.

The N. Koreans and Chinese also did this in Korea.

And in some cases, this is what has happened in the Middle East conflicts. It reduces the ability to use supporting arms and forces the PBI to go in and get close up and personal. Thus reduced ranges.

[bobcat]

in modern warfare you pretty much have to get inside the artillery shield of the enemy or you'r not in a gunfight, you're being shelled. this holds true in any theater with one exception. if your enemy cares little for the lives of their troops even at gun fighting range you're still being shelled.

[rcaf_777]

Going off my experince as a infantry grunt 440 yd was the max effective range of lone rifleman, and infantry section has effective range out to 600 yd.

However looking at man shape target on the range with iron sights. You be hard press to make a lot of details at 600 yds, not saying you could'nt hit it but you have some diffcultly.

I was taught the goal of engaging target that far was engage them with effective fire, which bullets at them that make them duck and hide maybe you get lucky at hit someone.

When I learned shooting at basic, the shooting was done at ranges from 2OO to 100 yards which the instructors said where ideal engagments in which you had a good chance of hitting a man in his center of mass and taking him down. Durring MOUNT(Urban Ops) training engagments where at ranges less than 100 yards

My Two Cents

[Cdnwolf]

Going off my experince as a infantry grunt 440 yd was the max effective range of lone rifleman, and infantry section has effective range out to 600 yd.

However looking at man shape target on the range with iron sights. You be hard press to make a lot of details at 600 yds, not saying you could'nt hit it but you have some diffcultly.

I was taught the goal of engaging target that far was engage them with effective fire, which bullets at them that make them duck and hide maybe you get lucky at hit someone.

When I learned shooting at basic, the shooting was done at ranges from 2OO to 100 yards which the instructors said where ideal engagments in which you had a good chance of hitting a man in his center of mass and taking him down. Durring MOUNT(Urban Ops) training engagments where at ranges less than 100 yards

My Two Cents

Thanks.... that was my general concensus.... about 200 max unless they are stupid and walking in an open field.

[jester]

TARGETS IN THE OPEN! 5 round HE, 5 rounds WP, charge 2!

The words echo in my ears after all these years!

[pmulcahy11b]

TARGETS IN THE OPEN! 5 round HE, 5 rounds WP, charge 2!

The words echo in my ears after all these years!

By the time I went to war (Desert Storm), I had changed from 11C to 11B, so I,ve never fired a mortar in battle.

I imagine it would be hard to square up your bubbles with all that adrenalin pumping!