13th Armored Cavalry Regiment

[Matt Wiser]

Not to mention that Regular Army units have first priority for the M-1s and Bradleys. It's not until 1987-88 that mobilized ARNG and USAR units are reequipped with either the M-1/M2 or get the previously-mentioned M-60A4 with the M-1 turret and keep the M-113. Check the company team mentioned in the Red Dawn fic thread: they use the M-60A4 with the 105-mm gun and the M-113.

[CDAT]

Military Police is a Platoon and not a Troop...... even though their origins are of Dragoons belonging to the Marechausee Corps.

MPs are either Division or Corps MP companies.
...

One thing to add to your long list of what they have, when I was overseas my last couple of deployments was as EOD had MP platoons turn in on average 30 or so AT-4 per platoon, I do not remember if they were Division or Corp MP's but were assigned to combat patrol missions.

[ArmySGT.]

One thing to add to your long list of what they have, when I was overseas my last couple of deployments was as EOD had MP platoons turn in on average 30 or so AT-4 per platoon, I do not remember if they were Division or Corp MP's but were assigned to combat patrol missions.

It is part of the short list under explosives. MPs are typically light on HE.

In the 90s with the 48 round HEDP I had 8-10 cans.... When they went to 32 rounds It went down to 4 cans........

M72A2 LAW was one per team in the 90s and AT4 (M136) replaced that in 00s.
M67 frag was one or two per team.
AN/M14 -TH3 thermite was one per team.
M8 smoke was 4-8 per team.
M18 colored smoke was 1 of each except Red then we had 4-8 for marking LZs for medevacs.
M18A1 claymores was two per squad
Rocket illum flares was one per team
Rocket signal flare (red) was two per team for signaling medevac.
Team leaders had 3-6 HEDP for their M203, sometimes non lethal sponge rounds.
Shotguns has 00 buck but, were mostly loaded with rubber shot (00s) or birdshot (90s) for clearing civilians away from convoys.

There was one can of 5.56 to top up the TL and driver.
M60s had 10 or more cans of 7.62N
M249s 4-8 cans of 2 drums each
M9 ammo was just what was in the magazines. Though we pillaged enemy mags for 9mm.

[CDAT]

It is part of the short list under explosives. MPs are typically light on HE.

In the 90s with the 48 round HEDP I had 8-10 cans.... When they went to 32 rounds It went down to 4 cans........

M72A2 LAW was one per team in the 90s and AT4 (M136) replaced that in 00s.
M67 frag was one or two per team.
AN/M14 -TH3 thermite was one per team.
M8 smoke was 4-8 per team.
M18 colored smoke was 1 of each except Red then we had 4-8 for marking LZs for medevacs.
M18A1 claymores was two per squad
Rocket illum flares was one per team
Rocket signal flare (red) was two per team for signaling medevac.
Team leaders had 3-6 HEDP for their M203, sometimes non lethal sponge rounds.
Shotguns has 00 buck but, were mostly loaded with rubber shot (00s) or birdshot (90s) for clearing civilians away from convoys.

There was one can of 5.56 to top up the TL and driver.
M60s had 10 or more cans of 7.62N
M249s 4-8 cans of 2 drums each
M9 ammo was just what was in the magazines. Though we pillaged enemy mags for 9mm.

They had three to five per three man HMMWV. Now I do not know if that was normal or where they got them, as it is not normal for them to turn them in to EOD but had a couple of companies do this.

[ArmySGT.]

They had three to five per three man HMMWV. Now I do not know if that was normal or where they got them, as it is not normal for them to turn them in to EOD but had a couple of companies do this.

Times change, opinions change........ I can only speak for Desert Storm in 91, and Iraqi Freedom in 03,04,05.

Come to think of it ....... The National Guard MP company that was attached to the same Battalion had AN/PVS-14s for the Driver and TL / SL and the Gunners had the AN/PVS -7Bs (00s). Additionally, this NG MP company had the new lighter and smaller airborne version of the SINCGARS radios.
... (MP companies are swapped between Battalions too.) Consisted of three Active, one National Guard, and a Cavalry Troop.

MPs are odd that way. The MP Battalion deploys sometimes separately without companies and takes over units supplied from other active posts, plus reserve, NG, and loaner elements like supply, signal, cavalry, infantry....... mission depending.

[Tnchi2a]

Well a few of the reasons the stingray would not be used
1.its not a main battle tank
2.it was constructed in Slidell, Louisiana, U.S. (which is under Mexican rule in red dawn)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...th_America.png
3.its has no advantages over the current U.S. tanks other then cost (yes it was even slower then the M1 tank)
4. cost to kill ratio was to low only had 23mm armor at is best.
cost 1.5 million per unit (4.3 million for M1) kill rate stranded tank gun 100% all sides
yes the U.S. army did evaluated the stingray as a airborne delivered tank but never as a replacement for the M1 or M60.

now the main and really only needed reason you will not see a LAV-25 used by this unit is its not a tracked vehicle.
Armored cavalry units since the early 80s have been all track units in there combat elements. Before that they were Airmobile units.

On to what I keep hearing about the army getting first dibs
1. the Active duty Army units in the U.S. are already equipped and would not need to raid the Nation Guard Depots for vehicles.
2. There a plenty of tanks for the new units to equip from in the depots.
seeing as most if not all NG units are Infantry.

now just to clarify most of what I'm saying is base of logistics and standard military Naming processors.

Now a unit like this is more likely to be a
Armored Reconnaissance Squadron which is a division level unit that would be broken-up and divided between the brigades as troop level units. and would not get over Squadron size.

[pmulcahy11b]

Ummmmmm...the LAV-25 is definitely not a Stryker; they are based on only tangentially-related platforms, with the LAV-25 based on the LAV II and the Stryker based on the LAV III, and the Stryker being much heavier and...feature-rich.

[Matt Wiser]

Actually, no. Slidell, LA is east of the Mississippi, which is the front lines. A lot of swamp, and having the bridges on I-10 and U.S. 90 blown make SE Louisiana (Baton Rouge-New Orleans-Slidell safe from ground attack. The factory would still be in U.S. hands.

[rcaf_777]

The LAV-25 is and would still be built in Eastern Canada (Ontario), well away from the front line in the US or Western Canada

[Tnchi2a]

Actually, no. Slidell, LA is east of the Mississippi, which is the front lines. A lot of swamp, and having the bridges on I-10 and U.S. 90 blown make SE Louisiana (Baton Rouge-New Orleans-Slidell safe from ground attack. The factory would still be in U.S. hands.

Slidell, LA is west of the Mississippi between pearl river state wildlife preserve
and Big Branch Marsh National Wildlife Refuge.
between the I-10 (East),Route 11 (West), I-12 (North), and Lake pontchartrain (South)
so would be in Mexican hands.

The LAV-25 is and would still be built in Eastern Canada (Ontario), well away from the front line in the US or Western Canada

never said anything about General Dynamics Land Systems being in anyone's hands other then the U.S.
P.S. the plant that makes the LAV-25 is in London,Ontario, Canada for Informational Reference.

[Tnchi2a]

Ummmmmm...the LAV-25 is definitely not a Stryker; they are based on only tangentially-related platforms, with the LAV-25 based on the LAV II and the Stryker based on the LAV III, and the Stryker being much heavier and...feature-rich.

Jane's Tank Reconition Guide 2006 (the latest addition I can find)
List the stryker as and i quote "stryker - a U.S. Army model of the LAV-25 with 8 variants in service"
LAV I,II,and III are not sepreate Units but upgrade packages to the LAV line (Light Armored Vehicle)
The "LAVIII Project" as it is called is a Canadian military, is a Project to upgrade its LAV-25A1s to LAV-25A2 (name changed to LAV-A2) status

LAV-25A2
Funding has been approved for continued upgrades to the LAV family to bring them up to the LAV-A2 standard. Phase I improvements include increased external and internal ballistic armor upgrades, improved fire suppression equipment, and upgrading the vehicle's suspension to the Generation II standard.[7] Phase II upgrades include replacing the turret hydraulics with an electric drive system and replacing the thermal sight with an improved model incorporating a laser range finder.

To reflect the improved significant survivability and capability enhancements occurring today, the LAV is being renamed as the LAV-A2. The LAV-A2 project involved developing and installing an internal and external ballistic protection upgrade package for the Light Armored Vehicles, an automatic fire suppression system for the interior of the vehicle and a Generation II suspension upgrade to support the added weight of the new armor. The suspension upgrade includes new struts/steering knuckles, torsion bars, shocks and mounts and drive shaft. The three-kit armor system provides the LAV with additional survivability against improvised explosive devices (IED) and direct-fire kinetic energy weapons.

The LAV-25A2 includes the Improved Thermal Sight System (ITSS) developed by Raytheon, scheduled for fielding by the end of 2007. The ITSS provides the gunner and commander with thermal images, an eye-safe laser range finder, a fire-control solution and far-target location target grid information.[8]

The new armor will provide protection from 14.5 mm armor-piercing rounds, and include an anti-spall lining on the inside to further protect crew members. It will be similar to the protection found on the U.S. Army's LAV III "Stryker" variant.

[kato13]

Jane's Tank Reconition Guide 2006 (the latest addition I can find)
List the stryker as and i quote "stryker - a U.S. Army model of the LAV-25 with 8 variants in service"

I think that is either an oversimplification or flat out incorrect. The Mowag Piranha evolution branched into 2 different paths: the LAV25 path and the LAV III path. Virtually everything I have read puts the Stryker as an extension of the LAVIII path as they share a common chassis.

Things like the LAV-25 being amphibious and maintaining its C-130 transport status (without a USAF waiver) would seem to reinforce serious differences, as these are traits not held by either the LAVIII nor the Stryker.


Edit.
This seems to cover the basics

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/lav.htm

with the lav-25 being GEN II and the Stryker being GEN III

The GEN II has been designed and equipped with the capability, mobility, agility, and flexibility for operations in hot dry, hot humid, mild cold to cold climatic conditions and on highways, off road, cross-country, level and hilly unimproved roads, and urban environments. Its low silhouette makes it a difficult target to detect and destroy.

The GEN III configurations are newly designed LAVs from ground up. The chassis is longer and wider than the baseline vehicle. Higher capacity Power Pack, Driveline and Suspension have been introduced to provide more load carrying capacity.

[Tnchi2a]

I think that is either an oversimplification or flat out incorrect. The Mowag Piranha evolution branched into 2 different paths: the LAV25 path and the LAV III path. Virtually everything I have read puts the Stryker as an extension of the LAVIII path as they share a common chassis.

Things like the LAV-25 being amphibious and maintaining its C-130 transport status (without a USAF waiver) would seem to reinforce serious differences, as these are traits not held by either the LAVIII nor the Stryker.

That is possible the Reference materials I have found seem to contradict each other when it comes to this.

Jane's=said they are the same
Wikipedia=said they are the same
globalsecurity.org/milita = claims there different
General Dynamics Land Systems website = is confusing on the subject
Canadian Army website = waffle on the subject claiming in some place its an upgrade and another its a new vehicle build from the ground up
Where they all seem to agree that there all part of the LAV family , which is confusing in its self give the use a vehicle Family seems to be different from on company to another.

[kato13]

That is possible the Reference materials I have found seem to contradict each other when it comes to this.

Jane's=said they are the same
Wikipedia=said they are the same
globalsecurity.org/milita = claims there different
General Dynamics Land Systems website = is confusing on the subject
Canadian Army website = waffle on the subject claiming in some place its an upgrade and anothers its a new vehicle build from the ground up

It could simply be what their definition of "upgrade" is.

Wikipedia does seem to show is as a LAVIII extension

The Stryker is based on the LAV III light-armored vehicle, which in turn was based on the Swiss MOWAG Piranha III 8x8.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stryker

And this being the Mowag family tree
Family tree

• Piranha I
  • AVGP
  • LAV-25
    • ASLAV
• Piranha II
  • Bison
  • Coyote
  • Desert Piranha
  • LAV II
• Piranha III
  • Piranha IIIC
  • Piranha IIIH
    • LAV III
      • Stryker
      • NZLAV
• Piranha IV
• Piranha V

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mowag_Piranha#Family_tree

[Tnchi2a]

Ok it took me awhile but i found my field manual with the U.S. unit breakdowns in it.
First let me say we where all way off in size

U.S. Cavalry unit names
Regiment = Brigade
Squadron = Battalion
Troop = Company
Troop made up of 3 to 4 combat platoons

A typical 1984 Armored Cavalry Squardon OOB would be:

Troop A
1 x Headquarters Troop 1xM1,3xHMMVV,1xM577,1xM106,1xM939 5-ton truck
1 x Platoon of 6 x M3 Bradley CFV
1 x Platoon of 4 x M1 Abrams
1 x Platoon of 6 x M3 Bradley CFV
1 x Platoon of 4 x M1 Abrams
1 x Mortar Section of 2 x M106s

Troop B
1 x Headquarters Troop 1xM1,3xHMMVV,1xM577,1xM106,1xM939 5-ton truck
1 x Platoon of 6 x M3 Bradley CFV
1 x Platoon of 4 x M1 Abrams
1 x Platoon of 6 x M3 Bradley CFV
1 x Platoon of 4 x M1 Abrams
1 x Mortar Section of 2 x M106s

Troop C
1 x Headquarters Troop 1xM1,3xHMMVV,1xM577,1xM106,1xM939 5-ton truck
1 x Platoon of 6 x M3 Bradley CFV
1 x Platoon of 4 x M1 Abrams
1 x Platoon of 6 x M3 Bradley CFV
1 x Platoon of 4 x M1 Abrams
1 x Mortar Section of 2 x M106s

Armor Company (also known as Troop D)
1 x HQ of 2xM1 Abrams,2xHMMVV,1xM106,1xM939 5-ton truck
1 x Platoon of 4 x M1 Abrams
1 x Platoon of 4 x M1 Abrams
1 x Platoon of 4 x M1 Abrams
Turns out the Army was nearly finished equipping is units with M1s and M3s by 1983 so this unit may or may not have access to them depending on how many are in reserve in 1984.
the M60A4s and M113 ACAVs are the units they replaced as stated earlier.


1st Field Artillery Battalion (Mech)
1x battery of 8x M109A6 ,8x M992 FAASV's, 1x M981 Fire Support Team
1x battery of 8x M109A6 ,8x M992 FAASV's, 1x M981 Fire Support Team