Automatic fire rule in v2.2?

[CDAT]

My understanding is that during Vietnam the US fired around 250,000 rounds for every kill, during WWII it was still 25,000 rounds. Why the differance I can not say for sure but would be willing to say one of the issues is that everyone had a full auto weapon and there was a lot of spray and pray going on. In the movies, games, and books full auto is the thing you want, but in real life it is a good way to just waste ammo.

[Olefin]

full auto is a great way to spray a lot of bullets into the air - so if you are tryiing to kill a flock of birds overhead I would recommend it - otherwise unless you are on tripod or other mount its a great way to have players lighten their loads pretty quickly without doing much damage to whoever they are firing at

now if you are trying to scare off someone I could see doing it - as in "Damn if they have that much ammo screw these guys lets hit someone else!" as the marauders run for it

[Medic]

In one encounter my character had a PK gpmg prone firing three 5rnd bursts per turn, so I was loosing dice on the third burst per turn but thought it was worth it. I was firing at approaching infantry in light woods and managed to fire off the entire 100rnd belt and only scored one hit. Had to retreat (run away) when they started spamming us with nades which is how close they got. In my opinion those kind of results are not kind on they player considering we're playing world war 3 survivors. An considering the effectiveness of machineguns on the modern battlefield since world war one, not very realistic either.

Having instructed people on the use of PKM, I must say, that is very, very unrealistic as the weapon is very accurate. At 300m range, the procedure I have been taught is to fire short, controlled bursts with a spotter calling out the strikes of the tracer rounds. When the tracers connect with the target area, the bursts grow slightly longer to fire for effect. And even at 300m, the bursts are accurate enough when fired from prone, supported position, the strikes are within 60cm of one another.

[Olefin]

I agree with Medic - that is one place where a GM should be ignoring the results of the dice - if you are firing that weapon properly there is no way that you go thru that whole belt and only hit one person firing as you did in the combat situation that was described - you would have to have a weapon with either defective ammo or defective sights or both to miss that many times - especially if they were advancing under fire as was stated - its one things if its all long range fired at guys who are dug in -

found out a long time ago that the book is a guideline not a straight jacket

[Tegyrius]

In a moment of devil's advocacy, I will note that few automatic weapons would have barrels in good condition by 2000.

- C.

[Olefin]

it depends on if the weapon is part of your initial equipment or if you pick it up from an enemy

initial equipment should be in fully working condition per the game rules (unless your GM wants to do differently)

now if you are talking an old worn out gun with worn out barrels thats one thing - now thats believeable that you could fire a whole belt and only hit one guy

but if its in good condition with a good barrel and a trained user - time to ignore the dice rolls - maybe you can just have them all be wounds but no way that only one guy gets hit in a situation like that

game is fantasy but its based on reality after all

[Targan]

In my last campaign we kept track of barrel wear. SOG 1's armorer would do his best to swap out heavily worn MG barrels for less worn barrels. The PCs that chose to carry MGs generally made sure they kept the least worn barrels for themselves.

[swaghauler]

I believe the automatic fire rules were written based on the US Army's experience with poorly trained conscripts during the Vietnam War (the first US war where fully automatic weapon's were a general issue item). I have seen enough machinegunners and class 3 (NFA) competitors who could easily control short 1/2 second bursts to believe that automatic fire should really only be about 1 level more difficult than firing in semi automatic fire. We should just let the recoil penalty calculations take care of the rest.

[Tegyrius]

"NFA competitors." Now there's a title and ammo budget I wish I had...

- C.

[swaghauler]

"NFA competitors." Now there's a title and ammo budget I wish I had...

- C.

There is a gunshop called Altra Firearms near where I live. About once a month they have a machinegun shoot (they also rent various Class 3/NFA weapons for the public to shoot). Chandler, the owner, and his crew are every bit as good at full auto's as any military shooter I have seen (Chandler's crew are mostly retired PD and military guys). In fact, chandler opened Altra in order to be able to buy newer Class 3 weapons. Only police departments and Class 3 dealers can own firearms made after the 1986 "Machinegun ban." By the way, he has very good deals as well. The money these guys spend in just ammo is simply unbelievable.

[swaghauler]

Cool video on Vickers Tactical on YOUTUBE

Check out the 3 part video comparison of the M3 (NOT the M3A1) "Grease Gun" verses the new H&K UMP on Vickers Tactical on YouTube. Larry Vickers was a Tier 1 Operator with Delta and his video shows the difference in the control of low rate of fire smgs (the 450 rpm M3) verses higher rate of fire smgs (the 600 rpm UMP). They even discuss how recoil affects accuracy and how skill is used to counteract that effect. It was a good video.