OT: Seriously????

[Raellus]

The last decade saw a huge swing away from 9mmP to .40 cal S&W as the prefered "self-defense" caliber here in the U.S.A. There are "scientific" and opinion pieces ad-nauseum online supporting the latter as the better self-defense round. There are probably an equal number championing the 9mmP round. During this time, law enforcement, both federal and state migrated en masse to .40 cal S&W. It appears, however, that a swing back to 9mmP is underway. There are a couple of reasons why but one of them is apparently the stress that the 40mmS&W cartridge places on the working parts of most modern handguns. Slide cracks and other damage occurs in .40 cal S&W handguns much sooner than it does in those firing 9mmP. The U.S. Army has been looking, on and off, at potential replacements for the M9 pistol during this last decade, specifically at larger calibers, but the greater wear and tear exerted by .40 and .45 caliber rounds has, so far, held it back. We shall see.

I've only ever fired 9mm handguns so I can't personally comment as to felt recoil and controlability vis-a-vis other pistol calibers.

[Webstral]

I have an open-ended question for this crew. What would distinguish a shotgun design intended for self-defense or hunting from military applications I understand that some shotguns can serve in all three roles. More so than with other firearms, a shotguns roles are like a Venn diagram. However certain characteristics, like automatic fire, probably distinguish shotguns optimized for combat from shotguns for self-defense or hunting. Im curious what this crew thinks.

[kalos72]

choke, tube capacity, gauge and stock.

In no particular order...

[swaghauler]

I have an open-ended question for this crew. What would distinguish a shotgun design intended for self-defense or hunting from military applications I understand that some shotguns can serve in all three roles. More so than with other firearms, a shotgun's roles are like a Venn diagram. However certain characteristics, like automatic fire, probably distinguish shotguns optimized for combat from shotguns for self-defense or hunting. I'm curious what this crew thinks.

This is an interesting question when you consider the weapon's tactical application. The primary advantage of the shotgun is in its flexibility of payload. The US military has determined that the only effective role for the shotgun is in CQB or breeching operations. The shotgun IS being evaluated as a "specialist weapon" for Marine Corps FAST teams where the scattergunner will have breeching rounds, the new TASER rounds, ILLUM, and beanbag rounds to deal with varying shipboard threats. There's even a small grenade round in development. This is the best role for the shotgun. With an effective range of just 25 to 35 meters with buck (50 meters with flechette) and a range of only about 100 meters with a slug (150m with a Sabot); your going to have a tough time in normal small unit engagements.

The flexibility of the shotgun's ammo package is only effective IF the operator can change ammo types with a minimum of effort. This is why the Army dropped the CAWS (Close Assault Weapons System) program. The applicants could produced a large volume of fire at short range but really didn't provide the "order of magnitude" increase in firepower the US sought.
The Army found magazine fed shotguns too cumbersome to use in CQB and too slow to swap ammo for flexible use.

The "Security" and "Military" shotguns share some common traits that "Operators" consider necessary for flexible CQB employment:

1. Pump or RELIABLE Semi-Auto operation of the weapon. The military is gravitating to Semi-autos because of the faster rate of fire they possess. I prefer the Bennelli M4, the Beretta 1200/1300 series, the Remington 1100 Tactical, or the Mossberg 930. Police and Security agencies tend to gravitate towards pump actions because of Cost and because some commonly used LE rounds like the Beanbag and TASER will not cycle even the best semi-auto. Some common shotguns are the ubiquitous Mossberg M500 and the more robust M590 (the US issues this to all branches in both 18" 7+1 shot and 20" 8+1 shot models), the Remington 870 (a USMC issue too), the Ithaca Model 37 bottom ejector, and the Winchester 1200/1300. Ironicly, the SPAS-12 was rejected because of reliability issues and the fact that the safety would allow the weapon to discharge while activated.

2. Extended magazine capacity in tube magazines. The military is evenly split between 18" to 20" cylinder bored guns with 7 to 8 round tube mags AND 3" Magnum chambers and identically equipped 14 to 15" guns with 4 to 5 round tube mags. These guns are most common with CQB or entry teams.
The Security and LE community is embracing short barreled "entry guns" due to their maneuverability in tight quarters. Both parties prefer tube magazines for one reason. If you have to transition from buck to slugs rapidly; the operator only has to slide a slug into the tube and "rack the action" (which is what the action release is for) to be ready to engage a target beyond the effective range of buckshot. This holds true for specialty ammo too. Since the default load for most users is 00 Buck; You may find yourself doing this often.

3. Simplicity of action. This is the problem with a large number of the mag fed and bullpup pump guns today. The Keltec KSG has reliability issues and requires a very complex "manual of arms" to top off its tube mags. The shell lift tab is in the way when trying to "top off" a magazine. This forces the operator to move the pump handle slightly forward and invert the gun for reloading with a partial tube mag. The UTAS UTS-15 bullpup pump is completely unreliable.

When I took my tactical shotgun course in the 90's; We were told the following about "The Big Dog on the Street."

Rule #1: Run "cruiser ready" (full mag, empty chamber). No modern shotgun is equipped with a "drop safety" and even a 3 foot drop onto concrete can set one off. It also requires "operator's knowledge" of the controls to find the action release and safety in order bring the gun into action.

Rule #2: Leave the tube mag ONE ROUND DOWN upon bringing the weapon into action. This is to facilitate a change of ammo in an emergency. The last round you insert into your mag WILL BE THE FIRST ROUND INTO THE CHAMBER. You can either fire the weapon to advance a round change OR use the action release to eject the unfired round from the chamber and advance the desired round.

Rule#3: "Feed your puppy!" at every opportunity, you should top off all BUT the last round of the magazine. If you are doing one of those "fancy slap a round through the ejection port reloads; Your already in it deep OR just wrong" (this is the instructor's phase). You should NOT have to be reloading a completely empty gun.

Rule#4: Zero your gun to your Slug of choice. Most shotguns will have a different point of aim between buckshot and slugs. Keep any holdoffs for the buckshot which is a short range area effect load. A gun which shoots to point of aim with both buck and slugs is ALWAYS A KEEPER (unless it's unreliable). GhostRings or Rifle sights are a godsend when shooting slugs at range (although Bead sights can get the job done). A good weaponlight like a Surefire is also of benefit.

Rule#5: Segregate Buck and Slugs. I prefer Slugs to go into vertical belt carriers like the ones Midway reloading sells and put my buck into the horizontal carriers sold there. "Ammunition Management" is the one skill that separates the pros from the "wannabes" in Tactical Shotgunning.

Don't discount the 20 gauge versions of these shotguns either. They will provide on average 74% of the stopping power of a 12 gauge with only 66% of the recoil.

[Apache6]

Combat vs Hunting vs self defense shotgun

Webstral:
Like you said, most shotguns can serve either function, and on many shotguns you can easily change barrels to make it more effective for other type of work.

Most 'duck' hunting shotguns have fairly long barrels (26 - 28" not being uncommon) and at least in the US are normally limited to 3 rounds (due to laws), though many shotguns can carry 5 rounds but use a 'limiter' (which is just a plastic piece that takes up space and can be removed during normal cleaning.

"modern" Home defense shotguns will likely have short barrels (18 - 20") and be pump or semi auto having five shot magazines.

Depending on who is likely to be defending against what, you might run into other calibers of weapons. I've given 3 female friends/relatives shotguns chambered for .410 shells, since they were both 'slight and relativey unfamiliar with weapons. In two of the three cases, the weapons were far more likley to be used against racoons but gave them peace of mind. In the third instance a friend had an ex who was 'stalking her.' We got her a pump action .410 shotgun and I made her go to the range five or six times over about a year. (We also got her a concealed carry license and a .38 revolver but thats irrelevent to your question.) It was not what I would chose to go into combat with, but it was the right weapon for her, my 12 ga Rem 870 was too big and kicked too much for her.

Most military tactical shotguns will have shorter barrels (18-20") larger magazines, and may be able to accept bayonets or lights. Shotguns are not used all that often by miltary (I think T2K plays makes them seem more effective at long range then they are)

During T2K era the USMC used remington 870s with 18 or 20 inch barrels and bayonet lugs, equipped with magazine extenders that let you carry 8 rounds (7 in tube, 1 in chamber IIRC). Some but not all of them had a collapsable stock. They were not a particularly common weapons, being used primarily for 'less lethal' situations. Combat Engineers and Recon Marines often had them for urban breaching operations (i.e. blowing either the locks or the hinges off of doors). These ones were more likely to have the collapsable stock as they were a mission specific 'secondary' weapon.

[swaghauler]

Real World Shotguns:

Shotguns in Twilight are entirely too powerful when compared to real life shotguns (especially when using buckshot). I have made some changes to the rules which I will list here. Use them or ignore them as you choose:

Range of Shotguns:

The Range Bands for Shotguns ADD the base range bands instead of DOUBLING the base range band. A shotgun which has a base (Short) range of 20 meters with a slug will have a 40 meter Medium Range, a 60 meter Long Range and an 80 meter Extreme Range with that slug.
The Exception to this rule is if the shotgun is using a Rifled Barrel. Rifled Slugs fired from a Rifled Barrel double their Base Range Bands just like all of the other weapons in the basic Twilight2000 rules. "Added Range bands" are indicated by brackets like this, [20m], to differentiate them from doubled range bands.

Ghost Ring or Rifle Sights: These add 5 meters to the Base (Short) Range of Slugs and Sabots (both smoothbore & Rifled) and 2 meters to any Buckshot or Flechettes.

Chokes: I only use three chokes in my game. They are;
Cylinder Bore: This is the "base" choke for all shotguns in the game.
Modified Cylinder Choke: This choke adds 1 meter to the shotgun's Short/Base range.
Full Choke: This choke adds 2 meters to the Short/Base Range of the shotgun. Full chokes also make it unsafe to fire slugs through the gun (due to increased pressures from the choke). This choke is unpopular for Military and LE applications because of this.

Shotgun Short Ranges Based on Barrel Length:

For ease of game play; The Short Range of any gauge of shotgun is based on barrel length. The gauge of a shotgun only affects the number of pellets or size of the slug that shotgun shoots. Consult the list below to determine your Base/Short Range and then add any "Range Bonuses" to this Short Range. While this really "oversimplifies" real world shotguns; It is easy to apply in game.

Shotgun BUCKSHOT/SLUG Range By Barrel Length Chart:
8" Barrel or Less: 5 meters/8 meters
9" to 12" Barrel: 6 meters/14 meters
13" to 15" Barrel: 7 meters/18 meters
16" to 18" Barrel: 8 meters/20 meters
19" to 21" Barrel: 9 meters/22 meters
22" to 24" Barrel: 10 meters/24 meters
25" to 27" Barrel: 11 meters/27 meters
28" to 30" Barrel: 12 meters/30 meters

Remember that Rifled Slug barrels are treated like normal rifle barrels.
Add 1 meters to this base range, and 1 to Recoil for a 3" Magnum Shell
Add 2 meters to this base range and 2 to Recoil for a 3 1/2" Magnum Shell

Buckshot in the Game:

Buckshot in the real world expands at a rate of one INCH per YARD (or meter) of travel. Because of this, most buckshot will hit only a single location at ranges out to 10 meters (a 10" spread of the shot). Shorter barrels tend to "open up" the pattern of the buckshot they fire sooner (although this isn't always the case). This is why range is the primary tool I use for demonstrating the difference between barrel lengths. To simulate this behavior; in game Buckshot behaves as follows:
At Short Range: Buckshot is considered a single shot for the listed damage to ONE location.
At Medium Range: Buckshot is rolled like a 9 shot burst from a rifle. Each hit causes 1 Die of damage. *As an optional reality rule you can roll the first hit normally and then roll each additional hit location by rolling either 1D6 for an initial upper body hit or 1D6+4 for an initial lower body hit depending on whether the FIRST hit was upper or lower body oriented. This would represent the "pattern" being either high or low on the target's body. This rule would be implemented at the Gm's discretion.
At Long Range: The Buckshot would now be rolled as a 5 round burst. and the shooter would have a +1 bonus to hit due to the shot spread. Each hit does 1D6 damage.
At Extreme Range: The Buckshot would now be a 3 round burst with a +2 to hit bonus due to shot spread. Damage would be 1D6 per round that hits
Bird Shot:
Bird shot has a very bad reputation for poor penetration in human tissue. Most bird shot won't penetrate 4" of Ballistic Gel. The FBI states that 12" of penetration in Ballistic Gel is needed to reach the vital organs of a human being. That being said; If all you have is Bird shot, then Bird shot IS what you will use. This poor effect can be modeled in game by treating Bird Shot
as Buckshot; BUT each hit does only ONE POINT OF DAMAGE (not one die) to the target. Birdshot would give bonuses of +1 at Medium Range, +2 at Long Range, and +3 at Extreme Range due to the number and density of pellets in the load.

[CDAT]

I have a tangential question: when the law enforcement types of the world started the switch away from the 9mm, why was the switch made to .40 caliber instead of the M1911 Time and time again I read that people in the know think the M1911 is the best all-around handgun available. Is there a rationale beyond politics and magazine capacity

A little with trying to stay out the politics part too much. The FBI was involved in a shootout that did not go well for them. They were looking and found a pair of bank robbers, who they then got in a shootout with. In the about five minute shootout about 150 rounds were fired. In the end both robbers were killed and two agents. The agents were packing a combination of .357 Mags (shooting .38+P), some 9mm, and a pair of shotguns (with buckshot). The robbers one used a shotgun but he was taken out early so not really in the fight. The other used a Mini-14 rifle and he fired about 40 rounds. In the post investigation it was found that of the about 100 rounds fire by the agents they did not have the take down needed. This is were the FBI came up with there testing that is used today, they also made the 10mm as the "perfect" round. However it had to much recoil for most of their agents, was too large for there smaller stature agents. Smith and Wesson took the 10mm and made the .40 S&W. This started the trend in law enforcement to switch over to the .40. here is a link to the wickipedia page about the shootout.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

As for the M1911 this was almost all politics, when law enforcement started switching over from the revolver they wanted to stick with the same basic size round (the .38 special and 9mm are basically the same). Some interesting things that I have read from actual shootings, those who have low capacity magazines ran out in the middle of gunfights less then those who had large capacity, as they keep better track of how many rounds they had.

[ArmySGT.]

https://www.youtube.com/watchv=lprGoEpDXJQ

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Swaghauler, your answers to questions about shotguns have been great, very informative.
I'd like to add something about the SPAS-12 from personal experience - it's 0.5kg to 1kg (1.1lbs to 2.2lbs) heavier compared to all the other semi-auto shotguns I've ever seen and that extra weight feels like it's all sitting on your off hand.
For all the "cool" it might have for being Arnie's shotgun in The Terminator, it handles "big & heavy" -- A bit like Arnie I suppose haha

[.45cultist]

I have an open-ended question for this crew. What would distinguish a shotgun design intended for self-defense or hunting from military applications I understand that some shotguns can serve in all three roles. More so than with other firearms, a shotguns roles are like a Venn diagram. However certain characteristics, like automatic fire, probably distinguish shotguns optimized for combat from shotguns for self-defense or hunting. Im curious what this crew thinks.

If Mossbergs survived decades with USMC units, it should work nicely, unlike the Mod 870, one must remove the mag tube to take out the hunting block that limits a sporting shotgun to 3+1 configuration or to convert it to trench or riot version.

[ArmySGT.]

I know I got in trouble for it before but I still feel that more women in law enforcement necessitated the move away from higher calibers due to even those with athletic training not having sufficient grip strength.

http://forum.juhlin.com/showpost.php...9&postcount=10

My first MP unit has M10 .38spl revolvers, M1911A1s, and M16A1s in 1991.

Several females and a few males qualified on M10s because the M1911A1s grips were to large. The 70 round MP quals has stages with one handed firing.

[stormlion1]

When I was a SP in the Air Force in the mid-90's it was primarily M-16A1's and later A2's with the dog handlers getting CAR-15's and everyone having an assigned M9. The Armory had other weapons available but unless you worked in there you never saw them. I know we had a few AK's, some Shotguns, and a locker full of M1911's that no one ever shot.

[ArmySGT.]

When I was a SP in the Air Force in the mid-90's it was primarily M-16A1's and later A2's with the dog handlers getting CAR-15's and everyone having an assigned M9. The Armory had other weapons available but unless you worked in there you never saw them. I know we had a few AK's, some Shotguns, and a locker full of M1911's that no one ever shot.

Your post reminded me of something I had completely forgotten. White Sands Missile Range, NM for whatever reason had a small armory of national match weapons run by post headquarters. The best shooters from the three active duty units would be tried out on some of these in the hopes that a post competitive team could be formed. I know it had M21s, M1Cs, M1 Rifles, M1911A1s (.45acp and .38super), and M10 .38s along with spotting scopes, rifle scopes, and all other competition gear. That was in the early 90's.

[Schone23666]

When I was a SP in the Air Force in the mid-90's it was primarily M-16A1's and later A2's with the dog handlers getting CAR-15's and everyone having an assigned M9. The Armory had other weapons available but unless you worked in there you never saw them. I know we had a few AK's, some Shotguns, and a locker full of M1911's that no one ever shot.

And to think I started this thread as a sarcastic rebuttal to moronic conspiracy theories. I love this forum!

I'm curious, what were they doing with AK's in the SP armory Were they for OPFOR exercises

[.45cultist]

And to think I started this thread as a sarcastic rebuttal to moronic conspiracy theories. I love this forum!

I'm curious, what were they doing with AK's in the SP armory Were they for OPFOR exercises

I remember most of those when I was waiting to check out my privately owned pistols, no AK's or 1911's except my own. Alsoremember seeing the M249's in plastic sitting on the bench.