Mortars vs Artillery

[CDAT]

Thanks Ted.

"Light" originally meant more the lack of mechanized/armored support but to your point with all the extra firepower I added perhaps "light" should be more just "infantry".

Can you explain a bit more on your thoughts of the "3-4 wisdom" I am not sure I follow you.

I think he is talking about span of control, you try to keep any commander from having to large a span of control 3-5, three being ideal, five a bit much for most people, more is bad as you start to loose out on the ability to keep track of what is going on with your guys.

[kalos72]

Gotcha,

Thoughts about moving the light mortars and HMG squads to a weapons platoon at the company level, what about the heavy mortar platoon I have there now
Leave it combine them all into one weapons platoon

Seems to make sense to combine them except the heavies will never be assigned to a platoon like the other support weapons.

[kalos72]

Updated attachment from suggestions...

[Olefin]

wonder if anyone ever started with an artillery piece or in an artillery unit that still had a working gun as how they started the game definitely a pain to haul around but if you could get it to Kalisz, Warsaw or other places it would be worth a lot in trade goods and vehicles

[kalos72]

I never forced my players to keep those types of things...we used a value and let players "shop" for the gear they wanted. Within reason of course...

[bobcat]

for urban terrain a mortar would be far more valuable than a howitzer. mortars tend to be more accurate when delivering high angle payloads, reducing collateral damage. they also tend to be easier to fabricate ammunition for in less than ideal situations. of course in my games a 60mm mortar tends to be one of the most common crew served weapons this late in the war. mostly because of their real world ubiquity and the fact that early war nobody wants to file that loss report and late war nobody wants to lose that extra punch. they're mobile, easy to get a couple rounds for, and if your 11C knows his stuff they can and have scored mobility kills on armor.

of course i keep envisioning late war as more of hit and run guerrilla actions due to broken supply lines and attrition. this is the arena where the mortar is especially useful. assign a 60mm to each platoon(or equivalent level group) to provide them with organic fire support, have the platoons FO triple check that each fire team leader is fully trained to call for fire without accidentally blowing themselves up, and stay mobile.

[Adm.Lee]

Can you explain a bit more on your thoughts of the "3-4 wisdom" I am not sure I follow you.

The rule of thumb in making TO&Es is that a commander shouldn't have to control (keep track of) more than 5 elements. The Soviets (see Suvorov) called it the "span of command", so all of their tables are built on 3s, and assume attachments. Less than 3 elements, and you can fold this unit into somewhere else; more than 5, and you need to break it down into two units.

Example: Motor-Rifle Battalion CO: 3 MR companies + mortar battery, possibility of engineer and/or tank attachments, in addition to specialist platoons that might either come to his attention or might be run by the XO as part of the HQ company.

Some COs could easily handle more than 5, but one shouldn't build army-wide TO&Es on the smart guy.

[swaghauler]

Updated attachment from suggestions...

I would suggest the following additions for your Artillery Battery. I going to assume that the gun is an M102A1 (105mm) with a crew of 7. An M114 (155mm) has a crew of 14 and an M198 (155mm) has a crew of 11 (they need more crew to load the gun). Your additional Battery personnel would be:

1 Executive Officer (1st or 2nd Lt) to command one side of the battery If it were to "split" into two independent "smokes" in order to carry out a displacement while continuing supporting fire. If the Battery is not conducting "split ops," the XO will command when the commander is "off duty."

2 "Chiefs of Smoke" (Platoon Sergeants, E7): to manage each individual "smoke" (especially if the Battery is still conducting "split operations").

An FDC section consisting of 2 FDC specialists and 1 commo specialist (to maintain the Ballistic Computing System's wire connections). If the Battery is conducting "split ops," this number MUST double. One team will deploy with each "smoke" (and each "smoke" will be acting as an independent entity).

The positions and function of each crewman (on the M102A1) are:

1). Section Chief (E6, Left side of gun): Runs the BCS/Commo and commands the section.
2). Gunner (E5, Left side of gun): sets the gun's Elevation and Traverse.
3). Assistant Gunner/#2 (E4 or E5, Right side of gun): Hooks and pulls the lanyard. Swabs the bore with water after firing. Backup gunner.
4). Loader/#3 Man (E4- , Back-left side of gun): Puts the round into the breach. The rounds are a shell loosely pressed into a brass "cartridge" filled with the powder charge in the form of large (6" square) "tea bags" (known as Semi-cased). Cartridges are reuseable ON SITE.
5). Loader/#4 Man (E4-, Left rear of gun): Fuses the shell and places it on the cartridge handed him by the #5 man.
6). Loader/#5 Man (E4-, Back of ammo carrier/gun): Primes the cartridge. Puts the powder charge in the cartridge. Preps the expended brass cartridges for reuse.
7). Ammo Team Chief (E5, Back of ammo carrier/gun): Controls all aspects of ammo preparation. Second in charge of Section.

#3 man or #4 man drives the Prime Mover. #5 man or #6 man drives the ammo carrier. Section Chief and Ammo Team Chief are riding "shotgun" in their respective vehicles. All others are in the vehicle cargo ares.

[Askold]

Mortars are usually better kept in designated support platoons of the infantry company or in separate mortar companies.

Simply because if you have a platoon/squad/section/etc that has both indirect fire weapons you face the problem that either the artillery/mortars can't shoot because the enemies are too close or the other squads are useless as the enemy is beyond their effective range. The range issue is even bigger with cannons.

...And endangering weapons that can have 40km range is unnecessary.

But when the heavy weapons are in a separate support unit/platoon you can park them further back from the front line and use them more effectively.

[kalos72]

Something like this work for the battery

Section Leader and Platoon Sergeant will work as "Chief of Smoke" and radio operators are assigned out of the Comms Section as needed so they are listed here. Adding Ammo Section now...

Field Artillery Battery - 42 men / 10 UCV / 4 towed howitzers
Battery Headquarters 6 men / 2 UCV
Battery Commander
Battery XO
Battery 1st Sergeant
Driver (x2)
FDC Section - 6 men / 2 UCV
Section Leader
Platoon Sergeant
FDC Specialists(x4)
Howitzer Section (x2) 15 men / 4 UCV / 2 towed howitzer
Section Leader
Section Chief (X2)
Gunner(x4)
Loader (X6)
Ammo Carrier(x2)

[kalos72]

Infantry Battalion (Heavy) here...

I have concerns with the Weapons Platoons, the Mobile Gun Section(I was at a loss there)...

[swaghauler]

Something like this work for the battery

Section Leader and Platoon Sergeant will work as "Chief of Smoke" and radio operators are assigned out of the Comms Section as needed so they are listed here. Adding Ammo Section now...

Field Artillery Battery - 42 men / 10 UCV / 4 towed howitzers
Battery Headquarters 6 men / 2 UCV
Battery Commander
Battery XO
Battery 1st Sergeant
Driver (x2)
FDC Section - 6 men / 2 UCV
Section Leader
Platoon Sergeant
FDC Specialists(x4)
Howitzer Section (x2) 15 men / 4 UCV / 2 towed howitzer
Section Leader
Section Chief (X2)
Gunner(x4)
Loader (X6)
Ammo Carrier(x2)

I would delete the (2) Drivers with the Battery HQ. All of my commanders would drive themselves around or be driven by the 1st Sergeant. The XO would have a Staff Sergeant as his assistant and this E6 would usually be a "Skirt" (Admin Specialist) from our Battery office.

The FDC Specialists were E4 corporal, E5 or E6. Senior FDC NCO was the Section Chief, so there's no need for an extra leader. Remove Platoon Leader and Section Leader (the Senior FDC in each section IS the leader). The 2 Commo men I had listed were junior (E4 or lower) FDC "trainees" who were learning the "FDC ropes." This is why they were in that section "running wire." It was part of their "apprenticeship" in becoming Fire Direction Specialists. I was informed by those guys that had they known about this form of "Institutionalized Hazing," They would have just been Red Legs.

You have Section Leader in the Gun Sections list. Just make the Section Leader "Chief of Smoke," as the Section Chief (E6) IS the Gun Section leader. Everything else looks right for a Battery that can run "Split ops" (one smoke moving, one smoke providing supporting fire).
One note about the ranks in a Battery. These are fairly "Rigid" in the Artillery. You will almost NEVER see an E5 in charge of a gun crew and Chief of Smoke is almost always an E7. These ranks have about one grade of "wiggle room" (ie an E6 COULD be Chief of Smoke) but even this is rare.