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**dragoon500ly** · 03-21-2016, 01:45 PM

This has been discussed in previous threads, the general opinion was that Australia might field a brigade for New Guinea, maybe a battalion task force for Korea and very improbable that a BTF for the Middle East would be moved. With a WWIII scenario...my own opinion is that the Aussies would move to secure oil reserves as well as block any Indonesian moves towards the Land Done Under.

**RN7** · 03-21-2016, 02:02 PM

Originally posted by dragoon500ly View Post

This has been discussed in previous threads, the general opinion was that Australia might field a brigade for New Guinea, maybe a battalion task force for Korea and very improbable that a BTF for the Middle East would be moved. With a WWIII scenario...my own opinion is that the Aussies would move to secure oil reserves as well as block any Indonesian moves towards the Land Done Under.

Yes it has and I think I was one of the ones who discussed it. So do you think this this Australian ORBAT is too big or just about right

**dragoon500ly** · 03-21-2016, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by RN7 View Post

Yes it has and I think I was one of the ones who discussed it. So do you think this this Australian ORBAT is too big or just about right

I'd have to say way too large.

**Targan** · 03-21-2016, 08:37 PM

Completely and utterly insane. I mean maybe given 10 years of build-up, but forming multiple new armoured and infantry divisions essentially out of nothing In the space of a couple of years Where would all the equipment come from

Australia's Regular Army, even today, is pretty modest in size but reasonably well equipped and extremely well trained. A major component of Australia's on-paper Army are reserve units that are just shells with a few companies actually operating in peacetime. Australia, particularly the Australia of the mid-1990s, might seem rich and it is big geographically, but the population was only about 18 million in 1995.

There is no way that Australia would suddenly triple or quadruple the size of its army in the space of a couple of years and then send the bulk of it to the Middle East. Pure fantasy.

**aspqrz** · 03-21-2016, 08:54 PM

Originally posted by dragoon500ly View Post

I'd have to say way too large.

Well, yes and no.

Major Equipment wise, yes, you're probably right ... unless it is produced locally, or can be produced locally, which was unlikely back then and probably close to impossible now without a major lead time.

Manpower wise, no, you're probably wrong.

With a population a quarter of what it is now (or less) Australia raised around 14 Division Equivalents in WW2, AIF and Militia. The issue then, as it would have been in TW: 2000 and would be here and now is in the Major Equipment area, mentioned above.

At a guess, I'd say those Armoured Divisions would have, at best, been Mechanised (with wheeled APCs mainly, some tracked) with, maybe, one Indpendent Armoured Brigade (1-2 Tank Regiments [Battalions] and Mech Infantry).

The Army in SWPAC would be almost entirely Leg Infantry and almost certainly Reserves, with probably a single Motorised Brigade (where relevant ... obviously not on small islands!) and in Oz itself, Leg Infantry with Motorised elements (also almost exclusively Reserves).

Note: There would be enough motor transport in Corps and Army level units to Motorise most of the Leg Infantry (Reserve) Units most of the time, at the expense of some logistics support ... that's pretty much how things were, AIUI, back then and probably still are.

The big problem would be with the Reserve units ... artillery would be in short supply, and probably any weapons heavier or more sophisticated than Mortars. Ammo production would be an issue as well (as it would be for all smaller armies).

There used to be huge reserve stocks of everything from Rifles (millions of SMLEs till, AIUI, around the mid-70's or early 80s when they were all scrapped), MGs (Vickers HMGs, ditto scrapped), Tanks (Centurions, then Leopards, most of which were literally never used) and some Artillery ... but I don't believe that is the case any more. So it would take time to either purchase (against competing producer country army demands) or ramp up to produce locally for heavier weapons ... and I don't think either TW: 2000 timeline allows enough time.

YMMV.

(Oh, as for New Zealand, their numbers seem about right, maybe a bit less than they could manage ... but they have, AIUI, an even worse problem with 'Major Equipment')

Phil McGregor

**Legbreaker** · 03-21-2016, 09:04 PM

Agree with Targan. In the time available we'd be hard pressed to bring even existing units up to strength let alone create whole new Divisions from scratch!
Better to simply flesh out what exists, with much of the equipment drawn from obsolete stores (L1A1's, M60s, M113, etc). Only the regular units (most of 1st Division) and some parts of the reserve would have modern equipment (Leopard I, F88 Steyr AUG, MAG 58, Minimi, LAV-25).

**aspqrz** · 03-21-2016, 09:06 PM

Originally posted by Targan View Post

There is no way that Australia would suddenly triple or quadruple the size of its army in the space of a couple of years and then send the bulk of it to the Middle East. Pure fantasy.

Yet we did more than that in both WW1 and WW2.

The issue then, as it would have been in the TW: 2000 timeline(s) (and would still be, now) is in the area of 'Major Equipment' ...

Forex, in WW2, early 1940, my Dad was (illegally, as it turned out) called up for service in a Militia Artillery Regiment. They had uniforms (late WW1 issue), no Rifles initially, except for a small cadre, and they did rifle evolutions with Broomsticks for a while. Worse, they didn't have a single piece of Artillery ... they 'trained' on painted outlines on the parade ground. When they eventually got some guns they didn't get 25 pdrs, they got something similar to 18/25 pdrs (18 pdr late WW1 tubes on a 25 pdr chassis ... but, as someone pointed out to me some time ago, they couldn't have been exactly that for a variety of technical reasons) just before his callup was actually found to have been illegal (reserved occupation at the time, small business owner) and he went back to civvie street.

Later in the war one of my Uncles served with an Artillery unit in New Guinea, and they did have Australian produced air portable 25 pdrs (basically the standard gun on a lightened chassis, designed to be broken down for easy air transport) ... but that was probably at least 2 years later.

And, believe me, if you read the history of the Militia/Citizen Military Forces, they were in worse condition in 1939 than they would have been in the Twilight (or present day) universe, yet they managed a huge buildup in 'a couple of years.'

Phil

**aspqrz** · 03-21-2016, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by Legbreaker View Post

Agree with Targan. In the time available we'd be hard pressed to bring even existing units up to strength let alone create whole new Divisions from scratch!
Better to simply flesh out what exists, with much of the equipment drawn from obsolete stores (L1A1's, M60s, M113, etc). Only the regular units (most of 1st Division) and some parts of the reserve would have modern equipment (Leopard I, F88 Steyr AUG, MAG 58, Minimi, LAV-25).

My understanding is that there is bugger all in the way of 'obsolete stores' any more ... and probably wasn't back in the mid to late 90's either ... cost cutting and all that. Of course, I don't exactly have inside sources, so that could be wildly wrong.

Phil

**Legbreaker** · 03-21-2016, 09:22 PM

Yes, the older SMLE's etc are pretty much gone, but there's still a fair amount of L1A1's, etc floating about. With increased production from Lithgow Small Arms, a sizeable proportion of soldiers might be issued with F88's, but you'd still find plenty of the older weapons especially in support units. My own original reserve unit was only converted to the F88 in 1994 and still used the M60 until quite a bit later.

Given WWIII really kicks off in 1996, anything that goes bang is likely to have been retained, but since the vast majority of fighting takes place a very long way from Australia, it's unlikely there'd be a general call up of personnel so early on (unlike in WWI and WWII, Australia wasn't directly involved except in Korea where I believe we'd have put about a brigade).

With Indonesia becoming a problem the regular troops in Korea are likely to have been recalled and replaced with reservists (my guess is 9 Brigade organised as a mech brigade, and reinforced by the Scorpion light tanks of New Zealand), and 1st Division sent into the tropics - the remainder of 2nd Division acting as a garrison for mainland Australia and reinforcements/training.

**Louied** · 03-21-2016, 10:49 PM

I have to agree, way too big, however before delving into my BAOR ORBAT I gave it a go with Australia & New Zealand. I will try to find the PDF file I made but here is the rough outline. (I de-linked all the Bns/Regts and started conscription into the Reserves soon after the beginning of the the Sino-Soviet War)

1st Div-Papua New Guinea
- 3rd Bde
- 6th Bde
- 7th NZ Bde

2nd Div- Papua New Guinea
- 5th Bde
- 7th Bde
- 8th Bde

3rd Div- Defence of Australia
Far North Queensland Region
- 11th Bde
Darwin Region
- 9th Bde
Kimberley Region
- 4th Bde
Pilbara Regiion
- 13th Bde

Defence of New Zealand
- 2nd NZ Bde
- 3rd NZ Bde

Korea
- 1st Australian Mech Bde
- ANZ contribution to reformed 28th (ANZUK) Inf Bde

Middle East
- 10th Australian Mech Div
(Formed from volunteers for overseas service. Div had been requested by the U.S. in early 1997. Personnel were shipped out to The Sinai where they were equipped with U.S. AFVs etc)

The PDF file is more detailed, I'll post when I find it.

Louie

**RN7** · 03-21-2016, 11:03 PM

Originally posted by Targan View Post

Completely and utterly insane. I mean maybe given 10 years of build-up, but forming multiple new armoured and infantry divisions essentially out of nothing In the space of a couple of years Where would all the equipment come from

Australia's Regular Army, even today, is pretty modest in size but reasonably well equipped and extremely well trained. A major component of Australia's on-paper Army are reserve units that are just shells with a few companies actually operating in peacetime. Australia, particularly the Australia of the mid-1990s, might seem rich and it is big geographically, but the population was only about 18 million in 1995.

There is no way that Australia would suddenly triple or quadruple the size of its army in the space of a couple of years and then send the bulk of it to the Middle East. Pure fantasy.

I'd have to totally agree.

Britain which was one of the major powers in the Twilight War could only manage to field six divisions, plus a number of brigades and regiments after full mobilisation. Australia with about one third of the population of Britain and a considerably smaller arms industry has an army close to three times the size.

The Australian Army does have a useful air mobility capability and its special forces component is quite large for the relative size of its army. But the modern Australian Army (2016) is not that much different in size to what it was in the 1990's, and is basically the equivalent of one US infantry division plus some regiments of various types. Add the reserves and you have another light infantry division which would likely be organised into a few light infantry brigades and the odd regiment. So two divisions plus some independent regiments after mobilisation at most

So if we say that Australia introduces conscription to raise an army of that size, which incidentally the US, Britain and other Western countries never did in Twilight 2000, Australia might be able to raise an army as big as this. But arming and equipping it and then sending entire divisions overseas and supporting them I don't think so.

**Legbreaker** · 03-22-2016, 01:26 AM

Originally posted by Louied View Post

Middle East
- 10th Australian Mech Div
(Formed from volunteers for overseas service. Div had been requested by the U.S. in early 1997. Personnel were shipped out to The Sinai where they were equipped with U.S. AFVs etc)

I can't see Australia committing any troops to the middle east, not when they've already got a contingent in Korea, and a war with Indonesia (a MUCH larger military if somewhat lacking in modern equipment) right on our own doorstep.

I also can't see any form of conscription being brought in until Australia itself was under threat. Any attempt to do so before then would likely bring down the government at the very next election (if not sooner).

**dragoon500ly** · 03-22-2016, 04:02 AM

Only reason I can see to have an Aussie presence in the Middle East is to secure oil/refinery capacity. Would it have been a brigade, doubt it, more likely a battalion-sized task force, maybe a frigate or support ship and maybe a flight/squadon from RAAF, more than that, just don't see it possible.

**Louied** · 03-22-2016, 05:09 AM

I know I was going out on limb but the backstory I concocted was based on some IRL past Australian Defence Policy. (Up until just after Suez, Australia planned on forming a "3rd AIF" to serve in the Middle East).

-between August & October 1995 Australia began making plans to slightly increase its force posture (de-linking of Bns/Regts was put in motion). Recruitment was still on a voluntary basis, however after a long debate, conscription into the Reserves was initiated (The Defence (Reserve Forces) Act 1995. Just as in 1943 the Act regulated the area where "National Service" personnel could serve, Australia and its Territories plus north to the equator, bounded by the 110th meridian to the West and the 159th meridian to the East.)

- December 1995 28th (ANZUK) Inf Bde is reformed. U.S. & U.K. first approach Australia about providing a force for the ME (Oman had already asked the Brits for troops in late October)

- March 1996 Australia announces that an "Australian Expeditionary Force" (I also toyed with the idea of naming it "Australian Intervention Force" to get he AIF initials, any thoughts ) would be formed from Volunteers for overseas service. Plans are for a reinforced Bde Grp, and recruiting is opened to Regular Army and Reserves (both volunteer and National Service personnel). The response is so massive that plans are revised to make it Div sized and personnel flow is regulated. (What I did, for example, was to form a "3rd/1st BN, The Royal Australian Regt" and specified one Regular and three Reserve Bns to provide volunteers to it. I did this with all of the units in the AEF.)

- June 1996 the first units begin to arrive at a newly opened U.S. training camp in the Sinai, Egypt. (Offered by the Egyptians after a massive dose of money and military aid).

Ok how does it sound so far

Louie

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