Netherlands OOB

[lordroel]

Might want to take a look at his site (a colleague of mine), for a very detailed take on the Netherlands.

https://www.orbat85.nl

I have it and read it a lot, used it for my Dutch forces in the Caribbean in 1997.

[Olefin]

Interesting place I read about today - BAIV (British American Infantry Vehicles) BV - its a company in Maarheeze (close to Eindhoven) that supplies, restores and serves historic WW2 Armored Vehicles & Tanks. Its got a fully equipped workshop and was started in the early 90's by a bunch of old vehicle collectors as a place they could work on vehicles together before becoming a for profit business around 2002.

Could be an interesting place for players doing a campaign in the Netherlands to go to for either spare parts, tools or working vehicles - and its exactly the kind of place that would have been overlooked. Among other things they had old jeeps, trucks and even a fully restored and working Comet tank that has a live barrel - and that was in that condition in the mid-90s. Alternatively it could be a way to introduce some interesting vehicles into an encounter if you are running French characters and have them run into either marauders or Dutch resistance.

As in "what the hell is that" as a Comet tank fires from ambush on a French and Belgian patrol near Eindhoven

[lordroel]

Interesting place I read about today - BAIV (British American Infantry Vehicles) BV - its a company in Maarheeze (close to Eindhoven) that supplies, restores and serves historic WW2 Armored Vehicles & Tanks. Its got a fully equipped workshop and was started in the early 90's by a bunch of old vehicle collectors as a place they could work on vehicles together before becoming a for profit business around 2002.

Could be an interesting place for players doing a campaign in the Netherlands to go to for either spare parts, tools or working vehicles - and its exactly the kind of place that would have been overlooked. Among other things they had old jeeps, trucks and even a fully restored and working Comet tank that has a live barrel - and that was in that condition in the mid-90s. Alternatively it could be a way to introduce some interesting vehicles into an encounter if you are running French characters and have them run into either marauders or Dutch resistance.

Eindhoven would be under French occupation, its also the location of the DAF factory.

[Olefin]

Eindhoven would be under French occupation, its also the location of the DAF factory.

Its why I could see the restoration facility being overlooked - the DAF factory is the huge prize -this is a bunch of guys restoring old vehicles in a town several miles outside town. So while the French put a big time guard around the DAF factory (if its still standing) they wouldnt probably even care about some old rusting WWII vehicles.

Perfect way for a marauder or resistance group to get stuff to fight back with.

And if the canon is right the Netherlands lost all their tanks in the fighting- so even an old Comet is better than nothing.

[lordroel]

Its why I could see the restoration facility being overlooked - the DAF factory is the huge prize -this is a bunch of guys restoring old vehicles in a town several miles outside town. So while the French put a big time guard around the DAF factory (if its still standing) they wouldnt probably even care about some old rusting WWII vehicles.

Perfect way for a marauder or resistance group to get stuff to fight back with.

And if the canon is right the Netherlands lost all their tanks in the fighting- so even an old Comet is better than nothing.

Wait how do you lose all of your 445 tanks.

[Olefin]

Wait how do you lose all of your 445 tanks.

thats what I would like to know - Roel do you have either of the canon NATO books if you look at them the Netherlands really took it on the chin - basically the Corps has been disbanded, so has one of their divisions and whats left has no tanks - i.e. the descriptions for the remaining formations have zero tanks

So somehow they lost all of them in the fighting per canon

[Raellus]

Wait how do you lose all of your 445 tanks.

Such losses are not unprecedented in history. Several German tank and Panzergrenadier divisions lost all of their tanks during WW2, sometimes on more than one occasion. They could replace at least some of those tanks with new builds until very late in the war. AFAIK, the Netherlands didn't manufacture their own tanks during the Cold War. If Holland's capacity to repair/rebuild damaged tanks was also severely degraded (say, by nuclear attack), it is reasonable to envision the loss of all of their operational armor during the course of WWIII.

[Olefin]

Such losses are not unprecedented in history. Several German tank and Panzergrenadier divisions lost all of their tanks during WW2. They could replace at least some of those tanks until very late in the war. AFAIK, the Netherlands didn't manufacture their own tanks during the Cold War. If Holland's capacity to repair/rebuild damaged tanks was also severely degraded (say, by nuclear attack), it is reasonable to envision the loss of all of their operational armor during the course of WWIII.

that would make for a good adventure in a Netherlands campaign - i.e. having to sneak into the area that the French control to get parts you need (or possibly mechanics who got captured or otherwise lost behind enemy lines) so that they can get a few tanks back in operation - after all they didnt stop fighting the French -

[lordroel]

thats what I would like to know - Roel do you have either of the canon NATO books if you look at them the Netherlands really took it on the chin - basically the Corps has been disbanded, so has one of their divisions and whats left has no tanks - i.e. the descriptions for the remaining formations have zero tanks

So somehow they lost all of them in the fighting per canon

Have the NATO book i think somewhere on my PC.

In combat in Germany, i doubt the Netherlands ore any country will send all their tanks to fight and not leave some kind of reserve for homeland defense/material replacement

[Olefin]

Have the NATO book i think somewhere on my PC.

In combat in Germany, i doubt the Netherlands ore any country will send all their tanks to fight and not leave some kind of reserve for homeland defense/material replacement

Thats where the French invasion may have done them in - either by having tank storage or repair areas overrun during the invasion or by the fact that they would have already been weakened by the fighting in Germany and then basically faced fully equipped and unbloodied and fresh Belgian and French forces

If you look they really fought hard - some of the French and Belgian formations in the NATO books are missing a LOT of tanks - meaning that the Netherlands may have lost all the ones they had but the French and Belgians didnt get away scot free doing it

[lordroel]

Thats where the French invasion may have done them in - either by having tank storage or repair areas overrun during the invasion or by the fact that they would have already been weakened by the fighting in Germany and then basically faced fully equipped and unbloodied and fresh Belgian and French forces

If you look they really fought hard - some of the French and Belgian formations in the NATO books are missing a LOT of tanks - meaning that the Netherlands may have lost all the ones they had but the French and Belgians didnt get away scot free doing it

But the NATO book also said that by 1999 some of the AIFV the Netherlands Army still where fielding where deployed near the Rhine, so i find it strange that not a couple of dozen Leopard II where being fielded somewhere in the North of the Netherlands as a strategic reserve in case the French decided to breach the 50km deep free fire zone also known as the oeLa Zone Morteoe (English: Death Zone) separating French occupied Netherlands from on-occupied Netherlands

[Olefin]

Just wanted to remind people of a document I found in 2018 - it details the reduction in the Dutch forces due to the CFE Treaty that occurred in our timeline and I am pretty sure also happened in V2.2 - not sure about V4 but it may be a "reality" there too - shows how many vehicles, planes, small arms, etc.. they had to discard/sell/destroy and gives a window into the reduction of forces that happened to NATO

Also useful for those playing Dutch characters as it shows the kind of equipment they had before the reductions (i.e. for a V1 campaign) as to armored vehicles/tanks/small arms/etc.

Example from the document – By November 1995, the Netherlands had fulfilled all tis CFE reduction obligations through either cascading or destruction. The reductions were accomplished thru the disposal of the following:

Tanks: 170 Leopard IV
ACV: 104 M-113A1, 283 YP-408
Artillery: 230 M-30 and MO-120-RT-61 mortars, M-101 and M-114 howitzers

Also the document shows equipment that the Dutch sold previously as well - so lets say you are writing a module on Indonesia - yes thats you Legbreaker - you can see all the equipment the Dutch sold them from 1977- 1989

or where did all those Centurions go to that the Dutch had - answer they went to Austria who used them in the static fortress role - so Raellus thats for you and your Austrian Sourcebook

reposted the document again and its very useful for those doing V4 and wanting to try to create Dutch characters given the lack of info there - so you can see some of the weapons and vehicles they would have had and go from there

[Ursus Maior]

What a curious post. I was just looking for exactly such a document on the Bundeswehr. So far, I've had no luck, maybe I should look into Military Balance by IISS from the early Nineties.

[Olefin]

What a curious post. I was just looking for exactly such a document on the Bundeswehr. So far, I've had no luck, maybe I should look into Military Balance by IISS from the early Nineties.

I posted a link to where I found the paper before

you might want to check out the areas that say paperXX (as in paper05, paper11)

The Dutch info was paper05

https://www.bicc.de/uploads/tx_bicctools/paper5.pdf

paper 11 had info on British excess weapons as part of the CFE - so the German paper may be there too

https://www.bicc.de/uploads/tx_bicctools/paper11.pdf

[Ursus Maior]

Thanks, Olefin, the site is a treasure trove. Alas, not regarding to my question. I'll keep on searching then.