Airbase Personnel 2000/2001

[kalos72]

The fact that MILGOV has units spread out all over the country implies they are trying to control as much land/population as possible to me.

If I can control part of the state, I dont have army units to do it with, why would I go through the expense of moving them to another area to do the same thing Plus, the more units I have in my direct control, the more I have to feed. At least if they stay in place, they can work with the locals like the 78th does to feed themselves.

All the while, keeping some governmental control over an area where right now, I have none and cant afford to try and secure myself.

As for the Germany reference, thats logical because with the Russians approaching there will be no Germany left if they dont stop them. For the US though, there is no real outside threat of that scale to worry about.

The Mexicans aren't going to take over the country and to date the Soviets are stuck in the pacific Northwest and Alaska. The only concern is the control of the states and their resources, like an air base full of buildings/supplies and equipment.

[kato13]

The fact that MILGOV has units spread out all over the country implies they are trying to control as much land/population as possible to me.

This reminds me of two quotes

One from Napoleon.
When presented with a plan to protect the borders of France by using a very thin line of troops evenly spread across the entire border, his response was.

"What are you protecting me from, Smugglers"

And one from Sun Tzu
'If he sends reinforcements everywhere, he will everywhere be weak.'

Forces need mass to be effective. Isolated units are more prone take losses from insurgencies and desertion and without providing logistical support they loyalty would be difficult to guarantee.

Webs Fort Huachuca shows a perfect example of MILGOV losing control of a unit because it is out of its logistical support network.

In addition to desertion, the Soviets and the Mexicans MILGOV still has a lot to worry about. You also have CIVGOV, New America, marauders, warlords, separatists, etc. If you don't consolidate gains and fully stabilize parts of the nation you risk losing it all.

[Raellus]

OK, Kalos, I see your point and I think it's a valid one. I'm not arguing that all surplus USAF personnel would be ceded to the Army. In fact, I think my vision of USAF personnel in Army service better applies to overseas operations where combat is more intense and manpower needs are more dire.

If USAF personnel can be effectively used to secure valuable territory in the U.S.A., there's no need to transfer them to a different service/task. On the other hand, not every airbase, or its surrounding territory, is going to be considered valuable to MilGov. You're still going to have surplus USAF personnel. Where do they go

Looking at unit distributions in the U.S., there are large swaths of territory without any significant MilGov or CivGov presence. Putting aside Web's Thunder Empire materials for a moment (Not that there's anything wrong with them at all), there's not a single MilGov or CivGov army unit listed as present in Arizona c. 2000, that despite the existence of Luke AFB, Davis-Monthan AFB, and Ft. Huachuca (not to mention the USMC base facilities in Yuma). What does that mean Does it mean that the USAF is solely responsible for securing/defending that area If there are significant USAF cantonments, I wonder why the designers didn't list them. I'm not intimately acquainted with all of the CONUS modules so perhaps such lists exist.

In addition to desertion, the Soviets and the Mexicans MILGOV still has a lot to worry about. You also have CIVGOV, New America, marauders, warlords, separatists, etc. If you don't consolidate gains and fully stabilize parts of the nation you risk losing it all.

Kato nailed it here.

[RN7]

Looking at unit distributions in the U.S., there are large swaths of territory without any significant MilGov or CivGov presence. There's not a single MilGov or CivGov army unit listed as present in Arizona c. 2000, that despite the existence of Luke AFB, Davis-Monthan AFB, and Ft. Huachuca (not to mention the USMC base facilities in Yuma). What does that mean Does it mean that the USAF is solely responsible for securing/defending that area If there are significant USAF cantonments, I wonder why the designers didn't list them. I'm not intimately acquainted with all of the CONUS modules so perhaps such lists exist.

This is I think a major bone of contention in T2K, and particularly in regards to American forces in CONUS and elsewhere. To many units have been omitted, left out and overlooked for no apparent reason. There are gaps everywhere in canon sources and its led to a lively debate on this site. If ever there was a need to update the order of battle of US forces in T2K this is it.

[kalos72]

Sure consolidation is smart, assuming you can support 17 divisions in Colorado Or that you are willing to give up on the rest of the country while you secure Colorado Springs.

But since MILGOC had not consolidated his forces, can we really assume that was their intent The intent seemed to be, for better or worse, spread out the forces to keep some control over larger amounts of the country versus consolidating all in one place.

I think they assumed th 5th Army would be enough to handle to the Mexican advance and were sadly mistaken but at that point it was too late to move additional forces to reinforce them because they used all the fuel for that last drive.

The only option was to have them stay in place and work with the locals to secure their immediate area of operations. Just like many of the details in the canon books describe.

Why this same thought would not apply to Air Force personnel or Navy personnel Or State Guards Coast Guard

Losing the ability to move and support troops easily through out the country means they have to do what they cane were they can.

[Olefin]

This is I think a major bone of contention in T2K, and particularly in regards to American forces in CONUS and elsewhere. To many units have been omitted, left out and overlooked for no apparent reason. There are gaps everywhere in canon sources and its led to a lively debate on this site. If ever there was a need to update the order of battle of US forces in T2K this is it.

Classic example is the 173rd Airborne - which according to Frank Frey and others (waves to Raellus) is in Kenya - yet there is no mention of it at all in the US order of battle

And if you look at the King's Ransom module you see improvised units both on the US and Iranian side (the Air Force security unit and the Iranian formations that Frank created)

and if you look at Challenge you can see that there were units overlooked for sure in the order of battle - for example the Ohio National Guard units in the M1 tank factory article - and definitely the Coast Guard units that are in Rifle River

I suspect there are lots of improvised units created from Air Force personnel, National Guard units, State Guard, etc. you name it - probably mostly foot infantry, maybe with some gun trucks or the equivalent of Somalil technical and other improvised equipment - like the bank car armored cars used by New America down in Florida

[kato13]

Sure consolidation is smart, assuming you can support 17 divisions in Colorado Or that you are willing to give up on the rest of the country while you secure Colorado Springs.

I think you and I might be closer to agreement than you think but you are taking my concept of consolidation to the largest extreme.

I have a data file (I will attach the excel version and look for the original document) which lists 498 military facilities active during the cold war with a "replacement cost" of 100 million dollars or more. (if you include under 100 million it reached well over 1000 IIRC)

If I were to go with a simple thought I would expect that all of those facilities would be consolidated to the command nearest of the 17 homeland Divisions.

If I am MILGOV I simply cannot maintain 498 bases. I can however see them supporting 12-15 regions each based on a division or Corps command. The regions might include multiple bases from the list, but certainly not all of them.


edit. This is not the document I used for my base information but it was similar

http://www.comw.org/qdr/basestructure1999.pdf

[kalos72]

Both documents are awesome! Thanks!

I guess maybe I can clarify, I am NOT saying that some bases might not be cannibalized and personnel/equipment wont be consolidated. Or that some bases will be closed and locked up the best ways possible, although civilian workers might just stick around and run it themselves.

Nor am I saying that the base/units and equipment would be approved or supported by the government. But thats not to say that some just aren't "answering the phone" any more.

But I am saying that the conclusion that all military bases are closed and consolidated within one of the documented Army units, isn't logical. Is it possible some are Sure.

But to my OP, assuming you weren't trying to consolidate everything, what units would be left over

[Olefin]

FYI - good link here on Air Force Security units and training

http://www.usafpolice.org/units.html

example

1st Special Operations Security Forces Squadron
Hurlburt Field, FL


"Protect Who...Protect You!" The battle cry of the 1st Special Operations Security Forces Squadron reflects their worldwide mission--providing unequalled force protection for special operations. Approximately 270 security forces members provide physical security, entry control, armed response and police services to Hurlburt Field. They also deploy around the globe to defend AFSOC resources and troops in support of 1st Special Operations Wing and United States Special Operations Command missions. This unique unit also operates one of the busiest small arms ranges in the Air Force, providing combat arms training and maintenance to Hurlburt Field, Eglin AFB, and Duke Field.

[dragoon500ly]

Perhaps a better way to look at the problem is this...I'd suggest that the major training bases would serve as "nodes" for MILGOV, they tend to have more barracks and support facilities, extra equipment, as well as training cadre so they can support replacement drafts as well as local needs.

Next up would be bases that are in position to control key points (Fort Riley to control the central plains, Camp Shelby to control the New Orleans-Mobile Gulf Coast, just to name two).

Then there would be the need to control key ports, not just Newport News, but perhaps smaller ports, large enough to handle a couple of cargo ships and an escort.

Once MILGOV had an area under control, then they could branch out to control another strategic point, Memphis-Cario perhaps, and then linking down river to Vicksburg.

Just a few thoughts while stuck in traffic.....I HATE THIS DC Commute!!!

[.45cultist]

All personal opinions of course.

If 15 percent of the original base population stays behind it would be a mix of Admin/support/maintainance-facilities/security.

I don't think the US military's standard 10:1 tail to tooth ratio would apply as the cupboard would be pretty bare and lots of people with obsolete training would be moved to security.





Abandonment of bases would start happening in Jan-Mar 1998 when stocks start running out. The Mexican invasion in May would be the event that really gets it rolling.

Stormlion could answer this from an SP perspective, but an element of security police with prewar auxillaries drawn from the excess admin types. Postwar could be from another branch, perhaps once wounded released from the hospitals. A flight is equal to a platoon in personnel. Also as aircraft are stored or stripped, ordinance flights have people with small arms(mostly pistols) to secure ready loads for combat ops. In 2000, OSI had a couple of Uzis stashed there as well.

[ArmySGT.]

90's era Security Police would be divided into two distinct types.......

Flight line and base Security that attended 11B school at Ft. Dix or Law Enforcement patrolmen that attended 95B school at Ft McClellan or Lackland AFB.

It is my understanding that one did not crossover to the other without a reclassification.

[.45cultist]

90's era Security Police would be divided into two distinct types.......

Flight line and base Security that attended 11B school at Ft. Dix or Law Enforcement patrolmen that attended 95B school at Ft McClellan or Lackland AFB.

It is my understanding that one did not crossover to the other without a reclassification.

One Law Enforcement flight(LE Specialist), one Security Flight(SP Specialist), I think the Small arms instructor element was placed with them. Emergency Services Team is in the LES flight. I think even the LES goe to FT Dix for some base defense. Also the instructors at Lackland draw a mortar and the student hunt them while they act like insurgents shelling the facility. Each base is responsible for drawing and training auxillary personnel for extra manpower, like those who are searchers for plane crash victims(never pick up a flight helmet.....).

[kalos72]

So from what I am seeing, in this and another thread I found, was that even if all the air bases original personal were sent with the aircraft to another base/unit, maybe DoD forces would be used to patrol the base

Or alternate reservists to fill in the gaps

Or would it be like this:
14th Operations Group (14 OG)

ALL DEPLOYED TOGETHER:
37th Flying Training Squadron (37 FTS) T-6 Texan II "Bengal Tigers"
41st Flying Training Squadron (41 FTS) T-6 Texan II "Flying Buzzsaws"
43d Flying Training Squadron (43 FTS) T-6 Texan II, T-1 Jayhawk, and T-38 Talon
48th Flying Training Squadron (48 FTS) T-1 Jayhawk "Alley Cats"
49th Fighter Training Squadron (49 FTS)T-38 Talon "Black Knights"
50th Flying Training Squadron (50 FTS) T-38 Talon "Strikn' Snakes
14th Operations Support Squadron (14 OSS)
14th Student Squadron (14 STUS) "Eagles"
14th Mission Support Group (14 MSG)

NOT NECESSARILY DEPLOYED WITH THE ABOVE GROUP
14th Civil Engineering Squadron (14 CES)
14th Communications Squadron (14 CS)
14th Contracting Squadron (14 CONS)
14th Logistics Readiness Squadron (14 LRS)
14th Security Forces Squadron (14 SFS)
14th Mission Support Squadron (14 MSS)
14th Medical Group (14 MDG)

[alexei]

I was an SP in the USAF from 1989 1998. The career field was divided into Security Specialists and Law Enforcement. They were combined into one Security Forces career field in early 98, just when I was getting out.

Security guarded USAF resources (planes, nukes, etc.) on the installation. LE functioned as gate guards and cops on the base. Some bases had one or the other most bases had both. At some bases they were used interchangeably, at other bases they were separate. The Security specialty was much larger overall. A small number of LE personnel were also trained as K9 handlers.

During the 1990s the small arms instructors were brought under the umbrella, because those instructors and the SPs were the only personnel on most bases to handle small arms on a regular basis. Occasionally for major exercises we got a few auxiliaries from other units, but they were generally worthless.

Both Security and LE went through basic training and tech school at Lackland. Those selected as K9 handlers went through an additional course after LE tech school. Then both Security and LE went through a month of Air Base Ground Defense (ABGD) training at Ft. Dix. In the mid 90s they moved ABGD training to Camp Bullis near San Antonio. ABGD was very basic infantry skills similar to what is taught in Army basic and AIT.

Some bases had mobility commitments, so the cops would deploy if the aircraft did. On other bases a few would deploy and be replaced by reservists or auxiliaries. For example, when I was in Japan we were slated to deploy to Korea and activate a dormant base if something kicked off over there. A squadron of reservists would replace us at our base in Japan.

Supposedly there were 81mm mortar crews at a couple bases in Korea, but as I avoided Korea like the plague I never saw those.