LAV25 Pros and Cons

[Silent Hunter UK]

The LAV-25 gun and sights are equal to the Bradley. They have VERY good thermal sights now. In the first generation T2K they would have only had very good thermal sights. The 25mm and 7.62mm coax can reliably engage mansized targets at 1500m while moving at speed. This is part of the qualification tables.

Don't thermal sights need batteries

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The thermal sights used for turret weapons are powered by the vehicles electrical system.

[Draq]

as for supply of TOW's - per the rules you start with a full ammo load out - and that means you have them for sure, at the least at the start

I always consider the 'full ammo upon spawning' easy-mode. For realism and a real challenge, you'll be lucky to have many main cannon rounds, especially after the Kalisz breakout. But that's just me. I want the players to feel desperate and nervous, that a t-72 could pop over a hill at any time. They'll have to work hard to go from surviving to thriving. That's how I'd want to play.

[Draq]

Let's also not forget the different types of ammo for the 25mm...

[Raellus]

I always consider the 'full ammo upon spawning' easy-mode. For realism and a real challenge, you'll be lucky to have many main cannon rounds, especially after the Kalisz breakout. But that's just me. I want the players to feel desperate and nervous, that a t-72 could pop over a hill at any time. They'll have to work hard to go from surviving to thriving. That's how I'd want to play.

Agreed. In many campaigns, including the original Escape from Kalisz, the chances of the PCs having just topped off at the division supply dump (after several days of intense defensive fighting) would be pretty slim.

[cavtroop]

As a former Bradley gunner IRL, in a T2k scenario, give me the LAV 10 times out of 10. Less maintenance, much much better fuel economy, better stealth, faster, easier to work on, all of the things said above.

Even if you were to have TOW missiles for the Bradley, an MBT wins a head on engagement every single time, unless you have the drop. And even IF you have the drop on the tank, in a T2k scenario, it'd be better to GTFO than take your chances. The TOW would be valuable in a limited amount of circumstances - any of those scenarios, you'd be just about as good off with a man-portable ATGM like the Javelin, dismounted TOW, or any of the other options.

[Draq]

Agreed. In many campaigns, including the original Escape from Kalisz, the chances of the PCs having just topped off at the division supply dump (after several days of intense defensive fighting) would be pretty slim.

I imagine the higher the value, the more tightly it would be rationed. You're just as likely to see bazookas, panzerfausts, and panzershreks as LAWs, stingers, and TOWs. Everybody is going to bring everything out of the basement, and you get what your army, and allies have to give depending on how many there are, and how bad you might need it. Korean war, Vietnam, panama and Grenada, desert storm, Africa, yugo-break up, soviet invasion of Afghanistan; if it was issued then, it might be issued after Nov 1997.

[Silent Hunter UK]

The thermal sights used for turret weapons are powered by the vehicles electrical system.

I stand corrected.

[rcaf_777]

Problem I see with the TOW is unless you ambush them at close range (or attack in number) you are in real trouble. At max range you are looking at a flight time over 40 seconds for the TOW, but the tank gun will cover the same distance in less than a second. If the controlling unit is lost the TOW misses.

I was a TOW Gunner and we always shoot and scoot, shooting from a position concealment and then moving another position. I believe that most TOW Gunners are taught this.

[Raellus]

I was a TOW Gunner and we always shoot and scoot, shooting from a position concealment and then moving another position. I believe that most TOW Gunners are taught this.

Right, but you can't "scoot" until after the missile's hit the target, right As a former TOW gunner, you know that it's wire-guided, meaning that you have to keep the target in the crosshairs until the missile hits the target. Moving the vehicle before the missile strikes not only makes guidance much more difficult, but it seriously risks cutting the guidance wires, rendering the missile blind and stupid.

Therefore, during the several seconds between the launch (which produces a pretty noticeable signature) and impact of the missile, an enemy tank gunner may have time to acquire, target, and fire at the attacking Bradley.

[dragoon500ly]

Speaking as a former tanker...with a 40 second engagement at max range, with a M67 105mm gun, an alert crew could get off 6-7 aimed rounds at our heroic missile gunner, switch to a 120mm gun, you can still get off 5-6 aimed rounds, now that is with NATO crews, switching to the WP side, the 100mm gun can fire some 4 main gun rounds before emptying the ready rack. The 115mm is slightly better with a rof of 5-6 rounds. The 125mm, with its two part ammo is the worst, with possible 3-4 rounds.

Now this all assumes that the crew is stationary and scanning for targets.

If your tank is on the move, the reaction drill is a immediate left or right turn, fire your smoke dischargers and engage with all weapons. The rest of your section/platoon will engage the same area, until/unless the missile gunner switches targets.

Another tactic was to use battalion mortars to drop WP onto the suspected missile position.

[kato13]

during the several seconds between the launch (which produces a pretty noticeable signature).

Doctrinaly was there any way to create duplicate launch signatures. I remember in "Cardinal and the Kremlin", Clancy mentioned that there were dummy stinger missiles that would be used to confuse those looking for the real launcher.

It seems to me that simulating a launch (just the smoke not an actually dummy missile) 30-50 meters away from the IFV would be a perfect job for the dismounted infantry during a long range, hull down engagement.

[James Langham2]

Doctrinaly was there any way to create duplicate launch signatures. I remember in "Cardinal and the Kremlin", Clancy mentioned that there were dummy stinger missiles that would be used to confuse those looking for the real launcher.

It seems to me that simulating a launch (just the smoke not an actually dummy missile) 30-50 meters away from the IFV would be a perfect job for the dismounted infantry during a long range, hull down engagement.

Unless you are the infantry getting all the incoming....

[dragoon500ly]

Doctrinaly was there any way to create duplicate launch signatures. I remember in "Cardinal and the Kremlin", Clancy mentioned that there were dummy stinger missiles that would be used to confuse those looking for the real launcher.

It seems to me that simulating a launch (just the smoke not an actually dummy missile) 30-50 meters away from the IFV would be a perfect job for the dismounted infantry during a long range, hull down engagement.

There are simulators that are used during training for both TOW/Dragon, and there were plans to use them to decoy enemy fire.

[cavtroop]

Doctrinaly was there any way to create duplicate launch signatures. I remember in "Cardinal and the Kremlin", Clancy mentioned that there were dummy stinger missiles that would be used to confuse those looking for the real launcher.

It seems to me that simulating a launch (just the smoke not an actually dummy missile) 30-50 meters away from the IFV would be a perfect job for the dismounted infantry during a long range, hull down engagement.

there isn't a huge launch signature - there is some of course, but it's not huge by any stretch - unless you're looking at the area where it's launched from, you probably won't notice it, or the missile coming at you. You might notice it if you're really alert, but you might not - if the area the launch is from is dirty or dusty, the signature will be bigger, but it its off the ground like a Bradley/M901 launcher, its harder to detect with the naked eye.

Source: Bradley gunner, M901 ITV commander and dismont TOW user.

Here's one in the desert - most of the signature is the dust behind the HUMVEE

https://youtu.be/2FBrTq_CaOst=39

Here is a Bradley

https://youtu.be/WEaTxrds6rMt=72

notice how quickly the smoke dissipates, just a few seconds. If you're on an active battlefield, it'd be covered with smoke/dust etc and finding a missile launch signature would be very tough. In an ambush situation, you'd have to be looking at or near the launch to see it.

If you factor in the ATGMs that launch with compressed air, they'll have less signature.

EDIT: having said all that, in a T2k scenario, missiles will be ridiculously valuable and used only in specific situations I'd imagine.