Armed vs Unarmed Melee combat

[The Dark]

Mathematically speaking, T2K v2.2 effectively has 4 damage tiers for Armed Melee combat:

Bottle: 1d6/2 (average 1.75)
Knife/Machete: 1d6 (average 3.5)
Hatchet/Club/Bayonet/Spear: 1d6 + Str/2 (average 3.5 + Str/2)
Axe: 1d6 + Str (average 3.5 + Str)

Meanwhile, Unarmed combat does Str x Unarmed, divided by 10, rounded down, minimum 1 for punches, and the same number times 1.5 for a kick. I wanted to take a look at when Unarmed becomes a better investment than armed, by weapon category.

Bottle: Damage 2 is better than bottle, so the following are better (punch/kick):
Str 2, Unarmed 10/Unarmed 5
Str 3, Unarmed 7/Unarmed 4
Str 4, Unarmed 5/Unarmed 3
Str 5 or 6, Unarmed 4/Unarmed 2
Str 7, 8, or 9, Unarmed 3/Unarmed 2
Str 10, Unarmed 2/Unarmed 1

Knife/Machete needs Damage 4:
Str 3, Not possible/Unarmed 10
Str 4, Unarmed 10/Unarmed 8
Str 5, Unarmed 8/Unarmed 6
Str 6, Unarmed 7/Unarmed 5
Str 7, Unarmed 6/Unarmed 5
Str 8 or 9, Unarmed 5/Unarmed 4
Str 10, Unarmed 4/Unarmed 3

The remainder get more complicated, since higher Str increases their damage.
Hatchet/Club/Bayonet/Spear:
Str 4, Not possible/Unarmed 10 (does 5.5 damage Armed, 6 Unarmed)
Str 5, Not possible/Unarmed 10 (does 6.5 damage Armed, 8 Unarmed)
Str 6, Not possible/Unarmed 9 (does 6.5 damage Armed, 8 Unarmed)
Str 7, Not possible/Unarmed 8 (does 7.5 damage Armed, 8 Unarmed)
Str 8, Unarmed 10/Unarmed 7 (does 7.5 damage Armed, 8 Unarmed)
Str 9, Unarmed 10/Unarmed 7 (does 8.5 damage Armed, 9 Unarmed)
Str 10, Unarmed 9/Unarmed 6 (does 8.5 damage Armed, 9 Unarmed)

Axe: Nobody can do more damage unarmed than their average damage armed with an axe.

Note that this only looks at damage and ignores the hit bonus for knife, machete, or bayonet. Bayonets are really good, since they're the only weapon with a Str boost and an attack bonus. While the Axe is powerful, the -2 to strike makes it hard to use effectively.

I also haven't looked in depth at the additional weapons added in TNE. Quite a few are similar to existing weapons, but there are some that get 2d6 base damage (sword and cutlass get 2d6, broadsword gets 2d6 + Str/2, and battle axe and halberd get 2d6 + Str). Cutlass is notable for having +1 to hit and an average damage of 7, and halberd for being 2d6 + Str without a hit penalty.

[swaghauler]

HTH & Melee Damage Changes for My Twilight2000 V2.2 Game

I use a VERY modified system using both "wound damage" (killing) and "stun damage" (for incapacitation) for my game. It is a morphing of the base Twilight2000 system with Hero Game's stun system. Hero Games has one of the best "non-lethal" damage systems ever conceived and it was quite easy to integrate it into my game.

HTH COMBAT:

I figure the character's base damage just like the basic game by multiplying STR X Skill Level/10. This gives a number that is compared to the chart below to give you a character's base damage IN DICE (NOT POINTS). A punch does #D6 dice of STUN damage and a kick does #D10 dice of STUN damage. The Penetration Rating for a punch is 4 and it is 3 Pen for a kick. Every 5 FULL POINTS of BASE (the initially rolled) Stun Damage equals 1 POINT of KILLING Damage (wound damage).
The Stun Damage that the target actually takes is modified by the location struck. The following Stun Multipliers are applied by the location hit. They are:
Head: 2 X Base Stun
Chest: 1 X Base Stun
Abdomen: 1.5 X Base Stun
Extremities: 1/2 X Base Stun

This damage creates the equivalent of "fatigue levels" or "virtual damage" like the Virtual Damage used in TW2K13. A character's Stun Damage Thresholds are determined by adding STR & CON together. A character with a STR 5 and CON 5 would have:
Light Stun Wound: 10
Moderate Stun Wound: 20
Serious Stun Wound: 30
Critical Stun Wound: 40
Deadly Stun Wound: 50

The penalties are identical to real Wound Thresholds but will dissipate with rest. A Deadly Stun Wound renders you unconscious. Lingering Stun damage becomes Fatigue (I use TW2K13 Fatigue rules) until you rest. The actual Wound Damage inflicted must heal just like knife or bullet wounds.

MELEE COMBAT:

Within their range, most melee weapons are EVERY BIT AS DANGEROUS AS FIREARMS. The base game "makes light" of these weapons by giving them a generally lower damage than firearms. I have seen cases of people disemboweled and even dismembered by ordinary kitchen knives and wood cutting axes. They can be EXTREMELY EFFECTIVE when used as weapons. To model this, I change how melee weapon damage is determined in the game. Damage from melee weapons is figured just like HTH Damage with the exception that different melee weapons will use different damage dice. You simply substitute Melee Skill for HTH Skill when consulting the Damage Chart. Different weapons will also have differing Penetrations and Stun Multipliers (for determining how much Stun Damage they inflict).

Typical Damage Dice, Pen, & Stun Multipliers For Melee Weapons:

Any knife Under 4": Dice= #D3 (or 1D4), Pen= 1, Stun= X1/2, Parry= Formidable
Axe Wood/Fireman's: Dice= #D10, Pen=2, Stun X2, Parry= Difficult
Bayonet/Combat Knife: Dice= #D6, Pen= 1, Stun= X1/2, Parry= Difficult
Machette: Dice= #D6 (or 1D8), Pen=2, Stun= X1, Parry= Average
Tomahawk/Hatchet: Dice= #D6 (or 1D8), Pen= 2, Stun= X1, Parry= Difficult
Spear/Bayonet (mounted): Dice= #D6 Pen= 1/2, Stun= X1/2, Parry= Average
Long Sword: Dice= #D10, Pen=2, Stun X1, Parry= Average
Entrenching Tool: Dice= #D6, Pen= 2, Stun= X2, Parry= Average
Baseball Bat: Dice= #D6, Pen= 4, Stun= X3, Parry= Average
Police Baton: Dice= #D3 (or 1D4), Pen= 4, Stun= X3, Parry= Average
Hammer: Dice=#D6, Pen= 3, Stun X4, Parry= Difficult

These are just some examples of melee weapons and I am seriously considering including the other dice (D4, D8, D12) in game in order to give a wider range of damages for all weapons.


Armor absorbs just like ballistic armor, reducing Damage Dice just like it works with firearms.

HTH & MELEE DAMAGE CHART:
STR X Skill/10; ................ Damage Dice:
Less Than 1: ........................ 1 Die
1 to 2: ................................. 2 Dice
2 to 4: ................................. 3 Dice
5 to 7: ................................. 4 Dice
8 to 9: ................................. 5 Dice
10: ...................................... 6 Dice

[James Langham2]

You might want to have a look at my article on unarmed combat, I found the same problem

[swaghauler]

You might want to have a look at my article on unarmed combat, I found the same problem

It took me while to find it. I see we follow the same mindset. We need a "House Rules Section" where you can just post stuff by topic. The thread map isn't bad but Search will sometimes fail you or generate such a large return you cannot read it all in the time you have to read stuff.

That being said, I STILL give KATO two thumbs up for his good work managing this forum (but we still need a LIKE Button).

[The Dark]

You might want to have a look at my article on unarmed combat, I found the same problem

I'm guessing you weighted striking slightly more heavily than grappling/escaping I notice that the top four styles by net bonus are Wrestling, Jiu-Jitsu, Aikido, and Military Sambo, which are all grapple oriented (only Sambo has a bonus to Punch, all of them except Sambo have a penalty to kick, and all have bonuses to both grapple and escape). Meanwhile, the five with the largest net penalty are Tae Kwon Do, Fairburn, Savate, Karate, and Muay Thai, all of which are strike-oriented (Savate and Karate are plus in both punch and strike, the other three are all plus in one or the other, and other than Fairburn they're all negative in grapple). The only striking style with more than +1 net is Krav Maga.

[James Langham2]

I'm guessing you weighted striking slightly more heavily than grappling/escaping I notice that the top four styles by net bonus are Wrestling, Jiu-Jitsu, Aikido, and Military Sambo, which are all grapple oriented (only Sambo has a bonus to Punch, all of them except Sambo have a penalty to kick, and all have bonuses to both grapple and escape). Meanwhile, the five with the largest net penalty are Tae Kwon Do, Fairburn, Savate, Karate, and Muay Thai, all of which are strike-oriented (Savate and Karate are plus in both punch and strike, the other three are all plus in one or the other, and other than Fairburn they're all negative in grapple). The only striking style with more than +1 net is Krav Maga.

ACtually, personally I favor grapples and throws having done Jui-Jitsu however that is more to do with my personal preference for a defensive style.

In game terms I wanted a slight differentiation in styles but nothing over the top like some RPGs. While there are slight benefits to certain styles, I think they are roughly equal as some of the methods will be rarely used in play. I initially tried to have all as a net zero but couldn't get certain styles to fit and it became obvious that certain styles while looking balanced on paper would not be in game usage. I would welcome any thoughts anyone has re the balance of the styles.

[.45cultist]

It took me while to find it. I see we follow the same mindset. We need a "House Rules Section" where you can just post stuff by topic. The thread map isn't bad but Search will sometimes fail you or generate such a large return you cannot read it all in the time you have to read stuff.

That being said, I STILL give KATO two thumbs up for his good work managing this forum (but we still need a LIKE Button).

Yay! I'm already using some of your stuff.

[The Dark]

ACtually, personally I favor grapples and throws having done Jui-Jitsu however that is more to do with my personal preference for a defensive style.

I'm similar personally (I've done both Tae Kwon Do and Aikikai). As someone who's slightly shorter than average and with a heavy frame, I don't have the quickness to really be good at a striking style, but I was fairly competent in close with joint manipulation and throws.

In game terms I wanted a slight differentiation in styles but nothing over the top like some RPGs. While there are slight benefits to certain styles, I think they are roughly equal as some of the methods will be rarely used in play. I initially tried to have all as a net zero but couldn't get certain styles to fit and it became obvious that certain styles while looking balanced on paper would not be in game usage. I would welcome any thoughts anyone has re the balance of the styles.

I pretty much agree, since I think most people would be inclined to strike first (it's simpler and has the apparent advantage of doing immediate damage), so bonuses or penalties to the punch and kick side of the skill have a magnified effect due to their higher use rate. Block would probably be the next most used, with grapple and escape moderately common, probably along with throw. Diving blow and headbutt I would think are the least used, since headbutt is harder, less damaging, and has backlash damage.

[The Dark]

You might want to have a look at my article on unarmed combat, I found the same problem

One art I'd like to see added if you do any revising is gatka, a northwestern Indian art generally associated by Westerners with Sikhs. It was one of the bases for Fairbairn-Sykes Close Quarter Combat. Tentatively, I'd suggest a modifier line of +1/0/-1/+1/-2/0/-2/+1, with the ability to use knife or sword with the same skill.

[James Langham2]

One art I'd like to see added if you do any revising is gatka, a northwestern Indian art generally associated by Westerners with Sikhs. It was one of the bases for Fairbairn-Sykes Close Quarter Combat. Tentatively, I'd suggest a modifier line of +1/0/-1/+1/-2/0/-2/+1, with the ability to use knife or sword with the same skill.

Thanks, not comeacross that one and it might tie in with the Sikh unit proposed for Charles III to sponser

[The Dark]

Thanks, not comeacross that one and it might tie in with the Sikh unit proposed for Charles III to sponser

I actually found it because of the mention of the Sikh unit. I vaguely remembered mention of a martial art that was fairly common among the Sikhs from some reading I had been doing about the British East India Company, and poking around a bit, found a description of gatka that mentioned its influence on Fairbairn-Sykes, so I used that as a base with a couple changes (gatka was also used by Hindus, some of whom were kick-focused to avoid touching lower castes with their hands, which is why kick was raised slightly, etc).

[The Dark]

Another idea that popped into my head because the "MMA has no mods" was bothering me:

To develop a fictional or syncretic martial art style, roll 1d10 for each of Punch, Kick, Headbutt, Grapple, Block, Escape, Diving Blow, and Throw.

DM Modifiers:
Hard Style: +1 to Punch, Kick, Block, -1 to Grapple, Escape, Throw
Soft Style: +1 to Grapple, Escape, Throw, -1 to Punch, Kick, Block

Die roll result:
0: -3 to skill
1: -2 to skill
2-3: -1 to skill
4-7: no modifier
8-9: +1 to skill
10-11: +2 to skill

I deliberately did not put +3 to skill on the chart, so that these styles won't end up with better modifiers than existing styles.

[pmulcahy11b]

Hmmm...I wonder if GURPS Martial Arts has anything translatable...need to look...

[The Dark]

I decided to run an analysis on the existing martial arts styles in James' documentand see how to weight the various categories to minimize the difference between the "best" and "worst" art and minimize the standard deviation, then use that information to create a point buy system for new martial arts, as a supplement to the random system I proposed before.

My methodology was to take the bonuses and penalties for each martial art except for Mixed Martial Arts (which had no modifiers), sum the modifiers, then look at the mean, standard deviation, and the spread between minimum and maximum of the sums. Once I had done this, I started varying the weight of each maneuver with an eye towards minimizing the standard deviation and the spread.

To create a new martial art: Roll 2d6-7 and divide by 2 for the number of points available to spend. A martial art may have negative points and/or half points, with a range of -2.5 to 2.5 and an average of 0.


Points spent or refunded per plus or minus (maximum modifier +/- 3):
Punch: 2
Kick: 0.5
Headbutt: 0.5
Grapple: 0.5
Block: 0.5
Escape: 0.5
Diving Blow: 1.5
Throw: 1

With these weights, the mean is 0.25, standard deviation is 1.74, and spread is 5.5. All of the existing martial arts fit into the -2.5 to 2.5 range except for Sport Sambo and Sumo, both of which are at -3 and should possibly receive minor boosts.

The high-value martial arts are the two Kung Fus, Military Sambo, and Wrestling, all of which are at 2.5. Low-value martial arts are the previously mentioned Sport Sambo and Sumo at -3, along with Taekwondo and Judo at -2.

[James Langham]

I decided to run an analysis on the existing martial arts styles in James' documentand see how to weight the various categories to minimize the difference between the "best" and "worst" art and minimize the standard deviation, then use that information to create a point buy system for new martial arts, as a supplement to the random system I proposed before.

My methodology was to take the bonuses and penalties for each martial art except for Mixed Martial Arts (which had no modifiers), sum the modifiers, then look at the mean, standard deviation, and the spread between minimum and maximum of the sums. Once I had done this, I started varying the weight of each maneuver with an eye towards minimizing the standard deviation and the spread.

To create a new martial art: Roll 2d6-7 and divide by 2 for the number of points available to spend. A martial art may have negative points and/or half points, with a range of -2.5 to 2.5 and an average of 0.


Points spent or refunded per plus or minus (maximum modifier +/- 3):
Punch: 2
Kick: 0.5
Headbutt: 0.5
Grapple: 0.5
Block: 0.5
Escape: 0.5
Diving Blow: 1.5
Throw: 1

With these weights, the mean is 0.25, standard deviation is 1.74, and spread is 5.5. All of the existing martial arts fit into the -2.5 to 2.5 range except for Sport Sambo and Sumo, both of which are at -3 and should possibly receive minor boosts.

The high-value martial arts are the two Kung Fus, Military Sambo, and Wrestling, all of which are at 2.5. Low-value martial arts are the previously mentioned Sport Sambo and Sumo at -3, along with Taekwondo and Judo at -2.

I love the mathematical analysis, I'm not surprised at the low value of Sumo or sport sambo in game terms. I am surprised wrestling comes out so well. I suppose though the relative weighting is the only subjective. I am working on expanding the article and would value others opinions as to the over/under rated plus any missing martial arts.