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  • T2K Tank forces

    NATO and Warsaw Pact Tank Fleet at start of Twilight War.

    United States
    In the early 1990's the US operated about 18,000 tanks including older tanks held in storage. Until the introduction of the M1 Abrams tank in 1980 all US tanks could trace their lineage to the Second World War era M26 Pershing and M46 Patton tanks. The M47 was an M46 with a new turret, and the M48 and M60 were evolutionary descendents of the M26. The M60 and later variants of the M48 remained competitive against most Soviet tanks until the end of the Cold War, while later variants of the M1 Abrams were superior to all Soviet tanks.

    M1A3 (150) (* limited production/from Paul Mulcahy's pages)
    M1A2 (627 (* deliveries ongoing)
    M1A1 (5,017)
    M1 (3,273) (* 1,000 converting to M1A2 standard)
    M60-M120S (250) (* from Paul Mulcahy's pages)
    M60-2000 (250) (* from Paul Mulcahy's pages)
    M60A3 (5,151)
    M60A1 (3,101) (* subtract 500 converted to M60-2000 and M60 M120S)
    M48A5 (1,013)
    M47 (639) (* held in storage)

    Germany
    West Germany had the second largest army in NATO after the United States in the Cold War. The reformed German Army was supplied with US M47 and M48 tanks in the 1950's, which were supplemented by the Leopard 1 tank from 1964. The Leopard 1 was the first German tank built since the end of the Second World War, and was a good solid tank for its time with later variants remaining competitive against Soviet tanks into the 1990's. The larger Leopard 2 tank entered service in 1979 and is one of the most powerful tanks in the world. Later variants of the Leopard 2 are superior to all Soviet tanks. Following German Reunification in 1996 the East German Army is absorbed into the new German Army. The East Germans used Soviet T-72 and T-55 tanks, with some tanks built in Czechoslovakia and Poland. The combined strength of the German tank fleet was over 8,000 tanks.

    Leopard 3 (65) (* limited production/from Paul Mulcahy's pages)
    Leopard 2-140 (10) (* limited production/from Paul Mulcahy's pages)
    Leopard 2A5 (225) (* upgrade ongoing)
    Leopard 2A4 (695)
    Leopard 2A3 (300) (* upgraded to Leopard 2A4 standard)
    Leopard 2A1 (780) (* upgraded to Leopard 2A4 standard)
    Leopard 2 (380) (* upgraded to Leopard 2A4 standard)
    Leopard 1A5 (1,258)
    Leopard 1A3 (1,112)
    M-48A2G (418)
    M48A1 (240)
    T-72M (583) (* East German)
    T-54/T-55 (2,251) (* East German)

    France
    France had one of the largest armies in Europe but its tank fleet was considered weak for its relative size. French forces included many rapid deployment and light cavalry forces that were equipped with lighter armoured vehicles. The French governments policy to make weapons attractive for export effected the quality of French armour, and for a period French tanks were not as good as many other NATO countries. The main French tank was the AMX-30 which was an unremarkable design that offered little if any advantage over Soviet tanks. The AMX-30B2 was the later variant at the end of the Cold War. The AMX-40 listed in T2K is an upgraded AMX-30 and was in reality a single prototype intended for export. The new Leclerc tank was a powerful design with good firepower and armoured protection and brought French tank design in line with other NATO powers in the 1990's.

    Leclerc (406) (* deliveries ongoing)
    AMX-40 (50) (* limited production/from Paul Mulcahy's pages & RDF Sourcebook)
    AMX-30 B2 (549)
    AMX-30 (800)

    Great Britain
    Despite the small size of the British Army in comparison to other major European powers the British tank fleet was considered to be a powerful force. British tanks were all heavily armoured due to negative British experiences against German tanks in the Second World War. They were also uniquely equipped with rifled guns which have longer ranges than smoothbore guns of other tanks. The Centurion was one of the best tanks of the 1950's and 1960's, and the Chieftain was the most heavily armoured tank in the world from 1966 until the early 1980's. The Challenger 1 is basically an upgraded Chieftain Mk.5 with heavier armour. The Challenger 2 is a completely new tank that is even more heavily armoured than the Challenger 1 and is greatly superior to any Soviet tank. Over 500 older Centurion tanks were listed as being held in storage in 1990, but may include tanks converted to engineer vehicles and some training units.

    Challenger 2 (386) (* deliveries ongoing)
    Challenger 1 (450)
    Chieftain (850) (* all variants)
    Centurion (570) (* held in storage)
    Vickers Mk.3 (40) (* from Paul Mulcahy's pages)

    Other NATO Countries
    Other NATO armies used mainly US and German tanks, although Greece and Spain also had French AMX-30's and Denmark had some British Centurions. Italy also used the Italian OF-40 and Ariete tanks. The OF-40 was an export tank similar to the Leopard 1 and was built in small numbers, while the Ariete is a new and fairly advanced tank that was built in small numbers in the 1990's.

    Belgium
    Leopard 1A5 (334)
    Canada
    Leopard 1A3 C1 (114)
    Denmark
    Leopard 1A5 (230)
    Centurion (216)
    Greece
    Leopard 1A3 (109)
    AMX-30 (154)
    M48A5 (599)
    M48A3 (212)
    M48A2 (110)
    M48A1 (299)
    M47 (396)
    Italy
    Ariete (240) (* deliveries ongoing)
    OF-40 (10) (* limited production)
    Leopard 1A2 (920)
    M60A1 (300)
    M47 (313)
    Netherlands
    Leopard 2A5 (330)
    Leopard 2A4 (115)
    Leopard 1A4 (468)
    Norway
    Leopard 1A5 (80)
    M48A5 (55)
    Portugal
    M48A5 (86)
    M47 (60)
    Spain
    AMX-30 (299)
    M48A5 (180)
    M47 (375)
    Turkey
    Leopard 1A3 (397)
    M48A5 (1,980)
    M48A1/A2 (1,130)
    M47 (523)

    Soviet Union
    The Soviet Union had the largest tank fleet in the world with nearly 60,000 units in the 1990's.

    Soviet Union
    T-95 (10) (* limited production)
    T-94 (60) (* from Paul Mulcahy's pages)
    T-90 (107) (* deliveries ongoing)
    T-80 (6,240) (* deliveries ongoing)
    T-72A/B (10,000) (* deliveries ongoing)
    T-64A/B (9,700)
    T-62 (11,300)
    T-54/55 (20,600)

    Warsaw Pact
    Warsaw Pact forces used Soviet T-72, T-62 and T-55 tanks. Czechoslovakia and Poland built the T-72 and the T-55 under licence and exported many of them. Romania also built versions of the T-55 under licence, and the Romanian TR-125 was a reversed engineered T-72. The Second World War vintage T-34 was also found in the inventories of Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Romania.

    Bulgaria
    T-72M (350)
    T-62 (250)
    T-54/T-55 (1,612)
    T-34 (862)
    Czechoslovakia
    T-72M (900)
    T-55 (1,927)
    T-34 (373)
    Hungary
    T-72M (195)
    T-54/T-55 (1,425)
    T-34 (91)
    Poland
    T-72/PT-91 (116) (* deliveries ongoing)
    T-72M (641)
    T-54/T-55 (2,150)
    Romania
    T-72/TR-125 (3) (* limited production)
    T-72M (30)
    T-54/T-55 (757)
    TR-85 (556) (* T-55 variant)
    TR-580 (414) (* T-55 variant)
    T-34 (1,060)

    Neutral European Countries
    Switzerland and Sweden built their own tanks in the Cold War. Switzerland built the Panzer 61 and 68, and Sweden built the S-103 which was more akin to a tank destroyer than a tank. In the 1980's Switzerland switched to the German Leopard 2 with most being built in Switzerland. After the Cold War Sweden also adopted the Leopard 2 but probably did not recieve them before 1996 in the T2K timeline. The others used a mixture of US, French, British and Soviet tanks. Yugoslavia licence built the Soviet T-55 and a modified version of the T-72 (M-80). Albania and Yugoslavia were still using Second World War era T-34 and Sherman tanks into the 1990's.

    Albania
    T-55 (50)
    T-34 (140)
    Austria
    M60A3 (159)
    Cyprus
    AMX-30 B2 (40)
    Finland
    T-72M (70)
    T-54/T-55 (100)
    Sweden
    S-103 (335)
    Centurion (110)
    Switzerland
    Leopard 2A4 (180)
    Pz-68 (190)
    Pz-61 (150)
    Centurion (150)
    Yugoslavia
    T-72/M-80 (300)
    T-54/T-55 (850)
    T-34 (400)
    M-4 Sherman (300)

  • #2
    I think as the cold war turned hot and even after the Nuks started to fly. things would go back to like they were in 1938-1940. or for the US until mid -1942. any type of weapons bought, no matter what or how good.

    Making tanks like the M-1 and the like is hard and to grow the number would take a new factory. But making like tanks (stingray and the like) would use lines that were not in use anyway. these numbers would be able to grow fast maybe up to 6 to 10 per month. will they be as good as the top of the line tanks like the M1 No!!! but if that is all you have the stingray is better than a 5ton gun truck.

    to bet back on track. your missing some of the lighter combat tanks.

    also do you have a line to the page you reference. i'm new here. thanks

    Comment


    • #3
      The American 3/73rd would probably have still been equipped with the M551 Sheridan at the start of the Twilight War, since they kept them until 1997 in our timeline. They should have been able to replace losses from the Sheridan VISMOD that were used to simulate Soviet tanks in training. I think James had them deployed to Kenya in his article on the M8.

      Originally posted by cawest
      also do you have a line to the page you reference. i'm new here. thanks
      Paul's website has all sorts of equipment.
      Writer at The Vespers War - World War I equipment for v2.2

      Comment


      • #4
        I had the 2nd Battalion, 73rd Armored Regiment deployed with Sheridans (one company air dropped in the initial deployment) with the rest of their Sheridans lost in the convoy that was bringing them. They got both M8's and M48's as replacements due to the fact that there were shipments going to China and the Turks that were grabbed for the unit to replace the Sheridans.

        i.e. "Twenty four M8 Buford light tanks, originally bound for China, and ten M48A5 tanks being sent to Turkey as replacements were reassigned to the battalion and arrived on the second convoy in May of 1998. "

        Comment


        • #5
          The differences is in the Fire Control Systems (FCS) even among Warsaw Pact (WP) members. The Yugo M80-M84 has a wind speed indicator on the roof the helps the FCS compensate for crosswinds. The Kuwaitis had bought Yugo M84s.

          Night vision driving gear, viewing equipment, laser rangefinders, and commanders sights all differentiate even among WP forces.

          Comment


          • #6
            RN7, have you seen Chico's Notes on Soviet Armor [in T2K] It's quite good.



            Also, Austria used the SK-105 light tank/"tank hunter" (mounting a 105mm main gun) during the Cold War. AFAIK, it wasn't replaced until the Bundesheer adopted the Leopard II in the early 2000s.

            Last edited by Raellus; 05-23-2017, 07:33 PM.
            Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG:

            https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit
            https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook
            https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook
            https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048
            https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Raellus View Post
              RN7, have you seen Chico's Notes on Soviet Armor [in T2K] It's quite good.
              Of course I have seen Chico's articles Raellus, but I have based my figures on data declared to the Conventional Forces in Europe Treaty which has been compiled in IISS Military Balance. I don't know were Chico gets his figures from but some don't match mine. For example Chico states that the Soviets built 6,000 T-90's by 1996, but in reality Russia has built 3,200 since 1993. Chico of course could be referring to projective production figures of a Soviet Union that never collapses which is churning out tanks due to a new arms race with the west, and we might see this number of T-90's been built. But I just based my figures on statistics on what was available in 1991.

              Originally posted by Raellus View Post
              Also, Austria used the SK-105 light tank/"tank hunter" (mounting a 105mm main gun) during the Cold War. AFAIK, it wasn't replaced until the Bundesheer adopted the Leopard II in the early 2000s.

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SK-105_K%C3%BCrassier
              I deliberately excluded light tanks such as the SK-105. They are not MBT's and if you include them you might as well include tank destroyers, armoured cavalry and reconnaissance vehicles with large calibre guns and cannons and ATGM's. Some IFV's could even be included. Way to hard and unrealistic to compile under tanks.

              Comment


              • #8
                Just askin', man.
                Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG:

                https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit
                https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook
                https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook
                https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048
                https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Raellus View Post
                  Just askin', man.
                  Raellus you should know by now that I like to cover all the angles!!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by RN7 View Post
                    I deliberately excluded light tanks such as the SK-105. They are not MBT's and if you include them you might as well include tank destroyers, armoured cavalry and reconnaissance vehicles with large calibre guns and cannons and ATGM's. Some IFV's could even be included. Way to hard and unrealistic to compile under tanks.
                    Valid.

                    <tangent>

                    Having said that... for T2k player purposes, I like light tanks/recon vehicles/assault guns better than MBTs. Lower fuel requirements, armor sufficient to deal with small arms threats, and more plausibly within the capabilities of a PC team to maintain. An MBT crew really needs the backing of a larger formation or community that can help with maintenance and brewing fuel... otherwise they just own a really nice pillbox.

                    Yeah, land piracy will satisfy fuel requirements for a while, but sooner or later that's going to get the attention of one of those aforementioned large formations or communities and they'll deploy a hunter team to either seize or destroy the MBT. Better to stay below the radar as long as possible. If I were playing in a campaign centered on PC ownership of something more potent than a busted-ass truck, I'd take an SK-105 or AMX-10-RC or Scimitar/Scorpion or M8/LAV-75 (or Stryker MGS, for later eras) over an MBT.

                    Just my two kilos of reloadable brass...

                    </tangent>

                    - C.
                    Clayton A. Oliver • Occasional RPG Freelancer Since 1996

                    Author of The Pacific Northwest, coauthor of Tara Romaneasca, creator of several other free Twilight: 2000 and Twilight: 2013 resources, and curator of an intermittent gaming blog.

                    It rarely takes more than a page to recognize that you're in the presence of someone who can write, but it only takes a sentence to know you're dealing with someone who can't.
                    - Josh Olson

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Why was the thread edited to remove replies Certainly isn't a flame war going on in here

                      My two replies with links to ongoing funding of M1s the U.S. Army doesn't want in 2014 and more funding in 2016, with replies by OP.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ArmySGT. View Post
                        Why was the thread edited to remove replies Certainly isn't a flame war going on in here

                        My two replies with links to ongoing funding of M1s the U.S. Army doesn't want in 2014 and more funding in 2016, with replies by OP.
                        When did you post them I don't see any gaps in the database for the last 200 posts. (Except on clear spam post I removed) from General Pain's sub forum.

                        Might be some weird bug where the post id got decremented but that should have effected a bunch of threads. I is also possible (though I can't really imagine how) that somehow a database backup got restored rather than dumped.

                        I will keep an eye on things but I don't think anything was purposely removed.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ArmySGT. View Post
                          Why was the thread edited to remove replies Certainly isn't a flame war going on in here

                          My two replies with links to ongoing funding of M1s the U.S. Army doesn't want in 2014 and more funding in 2016, with replies by OP.

                          Are the posts you are looking for here


                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Yep, that is them. My fault. The subject is pretty much the same. I was looking for them in the wrong thread.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by RN7 View Post
                              [B]
                              M60-M120S (250) (* from Paul Mulcahy's pages)
                              M60-2000 (250) (* from Paul Mulcahy's pages)
                              It could be the memory going but I am sure I have seen the same MBT, i.e. Abrams turret / Patton hull given both of the names / titles above.

                              For example the ever reliable Wikipedia suggest they are the same https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M60-2000_Main_Battle_Tank

                              Ditto Global Security http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...d/m60-2000.htm

                              Are the Twilight versions different I suppose it could be one way of getting another MBT out there if you have a Abram with a damaged chassis and an M60 with a useless turret

                              Could there be a typo on the number of T34-85s in 'Chico's Notes on Soviet Armor', i.e ",250 T-34-85" Is it '250' 0r ',250'

                              Comment

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