Milgov&civgov

[dragoon500ly]

Martial law, part 3

Hopefully you are as confused by all this as I was when I first started researching this...I even broke down and asked a few lawyers that I play the occasional round of golf with.

After buying these <ahem> gentlemen lunch and way too many drinks...

There are two basic questions that have to be answered:

1. Does the President have the authority to declare Martial Law

The answer is yes. With the havoc caused by the Thanksgiving Day Massacre, the President did have grounds to call upon Congress to confirm a state of martial law.

Did this happen Both the v.1 and the BYB fail to mention this confirmation. But the approval of the Senate is critical for such a declaration to be legal. Only Congress can declare a suspension of habeas corpus.

2. Did the President have the authority to name a military officer as a successor to the Office of the President

The answer is no. The Presidential Succession Act is very clear upon the necessary chain to determine if someone can be named, and active military officers do not fall within the PCA. For General Cummings to be named as President, he would have to resign his commission, be appointed as Secretary of Defense or even be named Vice President before he could fulfill the provisions of the PCA.

For General Cummings to remain an active duty officer AND take the office of the President, the PCA would deny him the legal authority necessary.

In real life, MilGov would be the illegal government, at least as described in the canon material.

[The Dark]

Continuity of Government is a major theme of the book Jason recommended a while back, Raven Rock. There were plenty of technically illegal orders placing various contingency plans in place putting (effectively) a military junta in a secret chain of succession. The problem that was eventually realized was that if the order is secret, how can anyone outside the group of people read in on it know whether it's a legitimate order or a coup d'etat

[kato13]

Has Cummings ever called himself President I just looked over Gateway to the Spanish Main and he is always called something like

"current Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and defacto Commander of the
Military Government of the United States"

Edit.

Also is Congress required The text from part one states
" The President, however, is commander-in-chief of the military, and it has been argued that the President can take it upon himself to declare martial law. In these times, Congress may decide not to act, effectively accepting martial law by failing to stop it;"

That being said a Senate quorum should have been been able to have been assembled. Even if you place a high TDM casuality rate of 65% for senators and Governors (Really High IMO), you should still be able to get 51 senators given governors can appoint any replacements. (Estimated 35 Senators + 22 Replacements on average)

Again canon says nothing about this, but this is not a surprise war. I cannot imagine those types of death rates given the strikes stated and Nukes were flying for 5 months prior. IMO someone would have pre approved martial law or made arrangements for a quorum to be available for many strike scenarios.

[dragoon500ly]

Has Cummings ever called himself President I just looked over Gateway to the Spanish Main and he is always called something like

"current Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and defacto Commander of the
Military Government of the United States"

Edit.

Also is Congress required The text from part one states
" The President, however, is commander-in-chief of the military, and it has been argued that the President can take it upon himself to declare martial law. In these times, Congress may decide not to act, effectively accepting martial law by failing to stop it;"

That being said a Senate quorum should have been been able to have been assembled. Even if you place a high TDM casuality rate of 65% for senators and Governors (Really High IMO), you should still be able to get 51 senators given governors can appoint any replacements. (Estimated 35 Senators + 22 Replacements on average)

Again canon says nothing about this, but this is not a surprise war. I cannot imagine those types of death rates given the strikes stated and Nukes were flying for 5 months prior. IMO someone would have pre approved martial law or made arrangements for a quorum to be available for many strike scenarios.

The presidential/martial law debate runs into these stumbling blocks. Yes the President can declare an executive order that states that the Joint Chiefs of Staff assume control. Would it be legal Nope. Serving military officers are not part of the line of succession because they are military officers. For them to serve in Cabinet posts they must either resign their commission or be retired.

Cummings and the JCS don't have legal authority to "govern" the country, even if they are obeying an executive order. Martial law requires that Congress either approves the decree by voting to have habeas corpus suspended, or give silent approval by not voting at all. And to make it all moot, is the argument that as long as civil law is still running, then martial law cannot be declared.

The issue then becomes what was the Federal Government doing after the first nuclear strikes

At the very least the President, Vice President and the congressional leaders would have been widely separated. One could easily see one set of leaders in Washington DC keeping up public appearances that all was well, a second set of leaders operating out of one of the COG bases such as Raven Rock, another set, perhaps at Cheyenne Mountain or similar facility.

With the pre war planning and with the fact of nuclear weapons being used tactically, and the excellent chance of them being used in a strategic role. Would the Federal Government ever have broken down so far that a need for an EO ordering the Joint Chiefs to assume military control of the country

Interesting question....

[kato13]

I think overall we are in agreement. You are saying that Martial Law as written in canon could not really happen. I agree but also don't see how the line of succession could be completely destroyed (also canon).

If 3 secretaries survive (canon) and one is promoted to president. The remaining department's second or even third in command can be immediately promoted to acting secretary (as they have already been approved by the Senate) and be put back into the succession order. This was confirmed around 9/11 that deputies promoted to acting (but not yet approved for full secretary ship) are in the Line.

Every secretary serves at the whim of the president so even if someone cannot be found as is not dead, they can be removed and their deputy made acting secretary. Keeping the line full.

After the nukes start flying in China and Europe the Senate could quietly file paperwork approving all deputies for full promotion removing even that slight ambiguity. And my mention of a Quorum surviving allows full approval even if that paperwork is not done.

The big questions come in Jan of 1999 when all representatives and 1/3 of senators would no longer be legally office and in Jan of 2001 when the acting president's and another 1/3 of senators terms would be over. The numbers of senators might be higher than a 1/3 for 98 as I think governor appointments cannot server more than 2 years or until the next scheduled election.


edit forgot elections are in even years and replacement is odd.

That adds another issue from Canon the governor who appointed himself senator would no longer be serving in mid 99 if civil laws were enforced. If the president suspended elections and congress passed laws saying they stay in office until a new census is conducted after a nuclear attack that could keep things stable until a quorum was lost.

Canon had a great goal. Two competing governing forces that would allow some serious unit on unit combat like in Europe. How else could you explain airstrikes or artillery strikes on bridges or similar targets without it (outside of where Mexican and Soviet forces are). But the method of getting there has holes so large you could fly a C-5 through it. Maybe with some thought we can come up with something more plausible.

Edit forget elections are in even years and replacement in Jan of odd years.

[Olefin]

Oh I agree that the canon is completely wrong about this - and that is something that (to use a very different source) was shown as part of Battlestar Galactica - no matter how far they would have to go down the chain of command to do it someone would have stepped up to be President

There is precisely ZERO chance that there would be no Presidential Successor - not with the nuclear attack in the game - maybe just maybe if you are looking at a all out attack on the country by the Soviets, Chinese, etc.. where there literally is most of the population destroyed to where no one is still alive in the Executive or Legislative Branch who is in the line of succession - but that kind of attack would be lucky to leave a 100,000 or so survivors

[Olefin]

I think overall we are in agreement. You are saying that Martial Law as written in canon could not really happen. I agree but also don't see how the line of succession could be completely destroyed (also canon).

If 3 secretaries survive (canon) and one is promoted to president. The remaining department's second or even third in command can be immediately promoted to acting secretary (as they have already been approved by the Senate) and be put back into the succession order. This was confirmed around 9/11 that deputies promoted to acting (but not yet approved for full secretary ship) are in the Line.

Every secretary serves at the whim of the president so even if someone cannot be found as is not dead, they can be removed and their deputy made acting secretary. Keeping the line full.

After the nukes start flying in China and Europe the Senate could quietly file paperwork approving all deputies for full promotion removing even that slight ambiguity. And my mention of a Quorum surviving allows full approval even if that paperwork is not done.

The big questions come in Jan of 1998 when all representatives and 1/3 of senators would no longer be legally office and in Jan of 2000 when the acting president's and another 1/3 of senators terms would be over. The numbers of senators might be higher than a 1/3 for 98 as I think governor appointments cannot server more than 2 years or until the next scheduled election.

That adds another issue from Canon the governor who appointed himself senator would no longer be serving in mid 98 if civil laws were enforced. If the president suspended elections and congress passed laws saying they stay in office until a new census is conducted after a nuclear attack that could keep things stable until a quorum was lost.

Canon had a great goal. Two competing governing forces that would allow some serious unit on unit combat like in Europe. How else could you explain airstrikes or artillery strikes on bridges or similar targets without it (outside of where Mexican and Soviet forces are). But the method of getting there has holes so large you could fly a C-5 through it. Maybe with some thought we can come up with something more plausible.

Frankly they came up with as a way to somehow explain the US being so week that they could have the country split apart long enough to have Texas and the Southwest taken over the Mexicans. The reality is - they could have just had it be NA versus what is left of the unified US govt (who is also trying to take back Alaska, Texas, etc..) and there would have been more than enough of the European flavor for US campaigns

[kato13]

Frankly they came up with as a way to somehow explain the US being so week that they could have the country split apart long enough to have Texas and the Southwest taken over the Mexicans. The reality is - they could have just had it be NA versus what is left of the unified US govt (who is also trying to take back Alaska, Texas, etc..) and there would have been more than enough of the European flavor for US campaigns

The US could be really weak. There are ways to get there.
Higher civilian deaths.

Spetnaz and perhaps Mexican nationals performing effective sabotage and assassinations.

Bioweapons on crops.

Regional Schisms

States seceding

National Guard troops refusing to leave their home states after nuclear strikes and other mutinies.

Natural Disasters


I just have a problem with it being portrayed as worse than Poland which had armies go over every inch two or three times, chemical weapons, strategic and tactical nuclear weapons, carpet bombings, rail-lines destroyed, minefields, not a single prewar bridge or powerplant standing, etc.

[dragoon500ly]

That adds another issue from Canon the governor who appointed himself senator would no longer be serving in mid 99 if civil laws were enforced. If the president suspended elections and congress passed laws saying they stay in office until a new census is conducted after a nuclear attack that could keep things stable until a quorum was lost.

Canon had a great goal. Two competing governing forces that would allow some serious unit on unit combat like in Europe. How else could you explain airstrikes or artillery strikes on bridges or similar targets without it (outside of where Mexican and Soviet forces are). But the method of getting there has holes so large you could fly a C-5 through it. Maybe with some thought we can come up with something more plausible.

Edit forget elections are in even years and replacement in Jan of odd years.

Situation gets even worse! According to the PSA, you not only have the Big 4; pres, vice pres; pres pro tempore and speaker of the House, you also have each cabinet sec, their assistant and their deputies, taking the succession up to 46, just a Federal level! PSA also includes the state governors, vice govs, and the heads of both houses of the state leg, which adds another 199 (Nebraska has a single house leg), so that's 245 people in the legitimate line of succession, which blows canon right out of the water!

[dragoon500ly]

The US could be really weak. There are ways to get there.
Higher civilian deaths.

Spetnaz and perhaps Mexican nationals performing effective sabotage and assassinations.

Bioweapons on crops.

Regional Schisms

States seceding

National Guard troops refusing to leave their home states after nuclear strikes and other mutinies.

Natural Disasters


I just have a problem with it being portrayed as worse than Poland which had armies go over every inch two or three times, chemical weapons, strategic and tactical nuclear weapons, carpet bombings, rail-lines destroyed, minefields, not a single prewar bridge or powerplant standing, etc.

There was always a considerable threat from KGB/GRU sabotage attacks, it's one of the reasons that the Feds provided funds for the State Guard units as well as providing military weapons and training to local police agencies.

With multiple refinery strikes crippling the petroleum industry, strikes at critical transportation hubs will fairly well destroy the industrial and agricultural industries as well.

Toss in strikes at nuclear/gas/coal and hydro power plants and a lot of people are going to be dead, dying or wishing they were dead.

This could be the most likely scenario for an executive order declaring martial law, one that could easily get a congressional approval.

But it still shuts down the MilGov/CivGov split. There would still be a President and a Congress (of sorts), to be sure, there might be a regional "President", but as the legal government slowly rebuilt power, industry, transportation, etc, then they could apply military force to bring the warlord under control.

As gas as states splitting from the union, it can easily happen, depending on the damage and fallout patterns, but eventually, they too can be reclaimed.

LOL! Talk about a T2K/Morrow Project link!!!

[The Dark]

Situation gets even worse! According to the PSA, you not only have the Big 4; pres, vice pres; pres pro tempore and speaker of the House, you also have each cabinet sec, their assistant and their deputies, taking the succession up to 46, just a Federal level! PSA also includes the state governors, vice govs, and the heads of both houses of the state leg, which adds another 199 (Nebraska has a single house leg), so that's 245 people in the legitimate line of succession, which blows canon right out of the water!

But having President pro tempore and Speaker of the House in the succession is unconstitutional, since the Incompatibility Clause (Article I, Section 6, Clause 2) states that no Senator or Representative may be appointed to another office during their term. The way the succession acts try to get around that is to state that taking the oath of office shall be held to be a resignation of the prior office, but I could easily see someone with a black-and-white view of things taking the stance that they can't be appointed in the first place, and refusing to go along with the appointment of either of the legislative successors.

There's also the controversy of "bumping." The PSA allows for a "higher-ranking" position to take over from a "lower-ranking" one. For example, the Secretary of Labor becomes President. New congressional elections are held, and the new Speaker of the House bumps the President and becomes the new President, because s/he's higher in succession than the Secretary of Labor. This violates Article II, Section 1, Clause 6 of the Constitution, which states that an Officer shall hold their position until disabled or a new President is elected.

Both of these problems step into the morass of separation of powers; they create situations where the legislative controls the executive or is able to wield undue influence on the executive, and could be seen as justification for discarding the entire law.

State legislators are not eligible in the PSA and never have been; they are ignored by 3 US Code 19. The order is Speaker, President pro tempore, and cabinet secretaries in order of their department seniority (State first, either Veterans Affairs or Homeland Security last depending on whether it's classic T2K or current timeline T2K17). It's a matter of debate whether deputies or "acting" secretaries are eligible, since they were not confirmed as Secretary by Congress. They definitely were NOT eligible until 2006, when the language changed (the 1886 Act stated Officers had to be approved by the Senate to hold the office that formed the basis of their claim to the Presidency, while the 2006 Act shuffled words around so that Officers have to have been approved by the Senate to hold an office). Acting secretaries have claimed to have been added to the succession, but it's never been announced and its legality has never been examined by a court.

[dragoon500ly]

But having President pro tempore and Speaker of the House in the succession is unconstitutional, since the Incompatibility Clause (Article I, Section 6, Clause 2) states that no Senator or Representative may be appointed to another office during their term. The way the succession acts try to get around that is to state that taking the oath of office shall be held to be a resignation of the prior office, but I could easily see someone with a black-and-white view of things taking the stance that they can't be appointed in the first place, and refusing to go along with the appointment of either of the legislative successors.

There's also the controversy of "bumping." The PSA allows for a "higher-ranking" position to take over from a "lower-ranking" one. For example, the Secretary of Labor becomes President. New congressional elections are held, and the new Speaker of the House bumps the President and becomes the new President, because s/he's higher in succession than the Secretary of Labor. This violates Article II, Section 1, Clause 6 of the Constitution, which states that an Officer shall hold their position until disabled or a new President is elected.

Both of these problems step into the morass of separation of powers; they create situations where the legislative controls the executive or is able to wield undue influence on the executive, and could be seen as justification for discarding the entire law.

State legislators are not eligible in the PSA and never have been; they are ignored by 3 US Code 19. The order is Speaker, President pro tempore, and cabinet secretaries in order of their department seniority (State first, either Veterans Affairs or Homeland Security last depending on whether it's classic T2K or current timeline T2K17). It's a matter of debate whether deputies or "acting" secretaries are eligible, since they were not confirmed as Secretary by Congress. They definitely were NOT eligible until 2006, when the language changed (the 1886 Act stated Officers had to be approved by the Senate to hold the office that formed the basis of their claim to the Presidency, while the 2006 Act shuffled words around so that Officers have to have been approved by the Senate to hold an office). Acting secretaries have claimed to have been added to the succession, but it's never been announced and its legality has never been examined by a court.

All valid points and to throw yet more garbage in the pot, you have the mass of Continuity of Government plans which includes state legislatures in the Presidental Succession (or at least the majority members).

What this boils down to is this, the President has the authority to appoint an assistant or deputy Secretary into the vacant Secretary slot, it does require Senate approval, but it is noted that a quorum is needed, while not explicitly mentioned, COG has plans for a committee, to approve these emergency appointments.

There has always been a lot of debate about inserting the Speaker of the House and President pro Tempore of the Senate into the succession, they are not members of the Executive Branch, but the PCA is fairly clear that they must resign their Legislative positions, in theory removing them from succession, in order to be sworn in as President. But COG allows for this as part of the swearing in and SCOTUS has never ruled that this is unconstitutional.

As for the appearance of the state legislatures, this is more along the lines that if the governor and the deputy governor die, then they assume the positions and once sworn in, if necessary, they enter the Presidental Succession.

The premise is that the Constitution, the PSA and COG ensure that there is a chain of succession, it is convoluted, and I have yet to find a single publicly available document that states A-B-C etc, what you have is a hodgepodge of documents, laws, regulations and plans all seemingly at cross purposes.

Confused yet

[Toxoplasmaman]

The Milgov/Civgov split is canon. After reading these posts, I realize that Milgov did a Coup d'tat. It happens folks. Even to us.

Wow... sorta sucks since a lot of us are former military. I supported Milgov when I played.

You have to appreciate the excellent canon work done back then. No web, deadlines, etc.

Course some of the canon is interesting from string theories and such.

[James Langham]

The Milgov/Civgov split is canon. After reading these posts, I realize that Milgov did a Coup d'tat. It happens folks. Even to us.

Wow... sorta sucks since a lot of us are former military. I supported Milgov when I played.

You have to appreciate the excellent canon work done back then. No web, deadlines, etc.

Course some of the canon is interesting from string theories and such.

One of the clever bits of TW2000 is the amount of grey in the game, little is black and white.

[shrike6]

The Milgov/Civgov split is canon. After reading these posts, I realize that Milgov did a Coup d'tat. It happens folks. Even to us.

A coup suggests a violent overthrow of the previous government. I don't remember reading that in canon. What they were, was the last intact functioning piece of the pre-war government. You can question the legitimacy of Milgov's rule. Just like you can with Civgov's legitimacy, the election/seating of Reps and Senators comes to mind.