USAR Combat Divisions, 1962 (Twilight 1964)

[Ewan]

Had a quick look at the files before I left for work and I was really impressed.
At the weekend I'll have a more in depth look but first impressions it looked very useful.
Will you be creating a NATO or Soviet Vehicle Handbook as I wouldn't mind the details of some British vehicles.

[mcchordsage]

Hey. You kinda inspired me last winter while I was in between jobs and needed a creative outlet. I started working on a Twilight 1964 guidebook and US Army guide based in part on your research and the old Twilight 1964 topic.

I'm posting them here because I haven't found time to do more than tinker with them lately, and because I'm pretty sure I'm lost in my own head with 'em. If you're curious, take a gander.

I mostly just updated old Twilight 1964 guide (tried to bring more authenticity to the military parts and I've reviewed/renewed about half of the U.S. states so far - some of the descriptions were a little too ridiculous, and some of the landmarks mentioned didn't exist in 1964). Google docs link here.

The Twilight 1964 American Military Handbook was just a means for me to nerd out on vehicles (and, eventually, weapons). I never played TW2K when I was a kid, but I absolutely loved the US, Soviet and NATO vehicle guides and tried to replicate that feel here, and to make it look like period U.S. Army Standard Military Vehicle Characteristics Data Sheets (I have the 1963 version for inspiration).

Both come with color plates, and both are incomplete. Just waiting for a second wind, I suppose.

Hope you like, and I'm happy to hear any critiques if you've got the time and inclination.

Nice! I like it! My own, very unfinished, location and unit guide is attached here (as an outgrowth of what I'd done above, plus a few notes on British and American heavy tank variants/expedients). I'd be happy to discuss anything, but you've made a much more finished set of books already!

Suggestion for the book is to include the M59 APC, as you mention it already. It was in wide usage by the early 60s with, as you note, the M75s mostly lingering in some of the National Guard tac carrier and armored cav units. The M8 was also used by M52 and M44 armored field artillery units as ammo carriers. (M52's hands-down my favorite vehicle of the era.)

[hell-fish]

Had a quick look at the files before I left for work and I was really impressed.
At the weekend I'll have a more in depth look but first impressions it looked very useful.
Will you be creating a NATO or Soviet Vehicle Handbook as I wouldn't mind the details of some British vehicles.

I'd like to eventually do a Soviet Vehicle Handbook for sure, but I think a NATO (or rest of world) guide might be best left to someone with more insight. I can probably fake my way through the NATO units in 1962-1964, but I doubt it would hold up to any scrutiny.

I'd like to flesh out the war in Europe a bit more, but again, I'd be pretty out of my depth in the details. I can nuke anything, but I'm sure there's someone better suited to telling you about what's been vaporized. I can certainly help as needed, of course.

Now that I think about it, I'd love to figure out what happened to Algeria.

Nice! I like it! My own, very unfinished, location and unit guide is attached here (as an outgrowth of what I'd done above, plus a few notes on British and American heavy tank variants/expedients). I'd be happy to discuss anything, but you've made a much more finished set of books already!

Suggestion for the book is to include the M59 APC, as you mention it already. It was in wide usage by the early 60s with, as you note, the M75s mostly lingering in some of the National Guard tac carrier and armored cav units. The M8 was also used by M52 and M44 armored field artillery units as ammo carriers. (M52's hands-down my favorite vehicle of the era.)

I'm amused we both killed off the Cuban expeditionary forces.

I'm in no way beholden to my own unit locations. I was trying to aim for flavor and diversity for the vehicle plates as much as pragmatism and TW2k canon. I built the story of the war around what the original author had and in places I thought I could add some flavor - the New Americans were patterned after a redneck version of ISIS, for example, after I added KKK markings to an M44 howitzer and wanted a backstory for it.

And the M59 APC is definitely on the list of things to do. I intend to be pretty comprehensive with the armored vehicles, though softskins will probably get bunched together in individual examples (I doubt all the various 2.5-ton trucks are so dissimilar in game terms). I didn't know the M8 was also used in SP units - I only saw it referenced with the Skysweepers and as prime movers for the heavy field pieces. The M8 is actually my favorite vehicle of the period, though I can't explain why.

[mcchordsage]

I'd like to eventually do a Soviet Vehicle Handbook for sure, but I think a NATO (or rest of world) guide might be best left to someone with more insight. I can probably fake my way through the NATO units in 1962-1964, but I doubt it would hold up to any scrutiny.

I'd like to flesh out the war in Europe a bit more, but again, I'd be pretty out of my depth in the details. I can nuke anything, but I'm sure there's someone better suited to telling you about what's been vaporized. I can certainly help as needed, of course.

Now that I think about it, I'd love to figure out what happened to Algeria.



I'm amused we both killed off the Cuban expeditionary forces.

I'm in no way beholden to my own unit locations. I was trying to aim for flavor and diversity for the vehicle plates as much as pragmatism and TW2k canon. I built the story of the war around what the original author had and in places I thought I could add some flavor - the New Americans were patterned after a redneck version of ISIS, for example, after I added KKK markings to an M44 howitzer and wanted a backstory for it.

And the M59 APC is definitely on the list of things to do. I intend to be pretty comprehensive with the armored vehicles, though softskins will probably get bunched together in individual examples (I doubt all the various 2.5-ton trucks are so dissimilar in game terms). I didn't know the M8 was also used in SP units - I only saw it referenced with the Skysweepers and as prime movers for the heavy field pieces. The M8 is actually my favorite vehicle of the period, though I can't explain why.

Yeah, the Cuban force is gone in my timeline as well and the Gulf Coast units are pretty badly fractured. There's a lot of scattered notes about the US situation I've never really developed into prose (The US Army in Yugoslavia, the domestic situation, etc.) and may well never get around to.

I've got no arguments with how you did it! Very good work.

Yeah, the panoply of 2 1/2 and 5 ton truck variants is better left to the GM if they really want to drag them all in. In my (needlessly extensive) research into the M52 units, they were apparently supposed to be one per section to serve the ammo needs of the firing units for resupply although I doubt the distribution ever got that high.

[hell-fish]

I'm interested in generally anything Cold War (especially if it is appropriate to the Berlin/Cuban Missile Crisis time frame). Any recommendations on M52 FMs or TMs

Also, have you ever come across any Marine Corps Fleet Marine Force manuals from the 50s or 60s I've been told that, for example, a Marine Corps tank battalion in the 60s had two M48 companies and an M103 company, along with a 9-tank flame platoon. I have no sources to verify this, nor do I know if there's a difference between a divisional tank battalion and a "force" tank battalion. I'd also love to know how the Marines trained with the M103. I've never seen an official publication - Marine Corps or Army - on the operations and tactics of that tank.

As an update to the American Military Handbook for TW64, I've overhauled the vehicle graphics entirely. I decided that because the line drawings are so wildly inconsistent in quality, that photographs of plastic models lightly edited and turned into black and white provide a more consistent and appealing look (plus, this is designed to be a miniatures game anyways, right) All line drawings are now out with very few exceptions, and I started working on aircraft entries.

For example, here's the F-100D/F:



And the M60:

[Ewan]

These might be useful

https://archive.org/details/FM17-15_201212/page/n0

https://archive.org/details/FM7-151965/page/n0

https://archive.org/details/military-manuals&tab=collection

[Ewan]

https://ospreypublishing.com/m103-heavy-tank-1950-74

Might be a good place to start for some details

[mcchordsage]

You want the 1959-1962 manual series designed for the ROCID/ROTAD organizations. The squad/platoon/company/battle groups have different TO&Es than the post-'63 ROAD units.

This is a Google Drive folder with FMs and some issues of Infantry magazine from the period.

This includes:
-Ordnance Corps stock and data on all items they handle circa 1961
-Australian Pentropic organization
-Infantry, Artillery, and support unit FMs for divisions/non-divisional units. See this thread for my already posted material on the forgotten fact the Army decided APCs belonged to the Transportation Corps not the Infantry in this time period.
-5th MEB's table of organization for the projected Cuban invasion.

As for the USMC, while my work has focused mostly on USMCR units I do have a magazine from the Marine Corps University talking about the USMC's ready afloat forces in the Med through the 60s and 70s.

Short answer to that question is that there was a divisional tank battalion assigned permanently to each USMC division, each had a permanently assigned assigned heavy tank company with M103s. The Marines used them like big medium tanks, IIRC. The Force battalion was formed irregularly. It was a temporary formation to be employed with the FMF units afloat, which were ad-hoc units in this time period.

The Army, on the other hand, had separate doctrine for their (one) heavy tank battalion(s), to be used to assault formations or fight Soviet heavy tanks. One of the suppositions in my is a program to field convert M103A1s to the diesel M60 engines when available.

USMC also had Ontos (lightly armored, tracked fighting vehicles with six 106mm recoilless rifles strapped to the outside) equipped Anti-Tank battalions, one per-division.

For those with a British interest, there's the FV4202 and Centurion Action X concepts, revived when time ran out on what would have become the Chieftan.

While the British Army was unable to complete development to deploy their next generation oeMain Battle Tank because of wartime pressures, they were able to execute a substantial rebuilding program for their existing Centurions and new production of a much less audacious oenew tank.

The oeAction X was formally the Centurion Mk. 7/3, a designation that hid the radically redesigned turret applied to these hulls. Armed with the 105 mm L7 gun in a mantletless turret originally intended to be used for researching the new un-named main battle tank, it was instead rushed into production as an incremental improvement for existing stocks of Centurions to improve their lethality and survivability. While originally trialed with the old 20-pounder, production turrets carried the new 105mm gun.

In contrast, the FV4202, known as the oeCohort or oeSuper Centurion was a new design that drew from the older Centurion design, departing widely in an attempt to draw the lines for an improved tank to fight the IS-3. It was half a meter lower in height, with better sloping to its armor, and an even more modern version of the mantletless turret design.

Unfortunately, both of these designs inherited the problems of the older Centurions. They were two thinly armored to face most current Soviet armor, the suspension could be difficult to repair in the field, and even with improved sloping. However, its 105mm L7 gun was an excellent weapon for the time period and would give a good showing in the Twilight War.

There's also my crack at the BAOR's nuclear equipped artillery forces.

24th Missile Regiment, Royal Artillery: Barker Barracks, Paderborn
2 Heavy Battery (8 howitzer)
34 (Seringapatam) Heavy Battery (8 howitzer)
51 Missile Battery (Honest John)
76 Missile Battery (Honest John)
27th Guided Weapons (Corporal) Regiment, Royal Artillery: Napier Barracks, Dortmund
6 (Arcot) Battery
23 (Gibraltar) Battery
39th Missile Regiment, Royal Artillery: Dempsey Barracks, Sennelager
19 (Gibraltar) Missile Battery (Honest John)
36 Missile Battery (Honest John)
75 Heavy Battery (8 M115 howitzer)
169 Heavy Battery (8 M115 howitzer)
47th Guided Weapons (Corporal) Regiment, Royal Artillery: Napier Barracks, Dortmund
3 (Corunna) Battery
4 (Sphinx) Battery
50th Regiment, Royal Artillery: Northumberland Barracks, Menden
15 Missile Battery (Honest John)
21 (Gibraltar 1779-83) Missile Battery (Honest John)
33 Heavy Battery (8 howitzer)
78 Heavy Battery (8 howitzer)

[hell-fish]

These are fantastic, thanks guys.

[mcchordsage]

No problem! The FMs are an interesting look at how the Pentomic organization was supposed to work. I recommend the TRADOC/other source studies on why it didn't stick around as well, for an idea how things may have worked out when Pentomic units actually went into battle.

Speaking of, I happened to get this at Goodwill the other day.

[Ewan]

As an update to the American Military Handbook for TW64, I've overhauled the vehicle graphics entirely.

Is there a link to the updated file. Also keep up the good work it's very impressive.

[hell-fish]

Is there a link to the updated file. Also keep up the good work it's very impressive.

I haven't updated the file itself yet. Once I've made some more progress I definitely will. I just added the self-propelled howitzers and most of the trucks I want to include.

[hell-fish]

No problem! The FMs are an interesting look at how the Pentomic organization was supposed to work. I recommend the TRADOC/other source studies on why it didn't stick around as well, for an idea how things may have worked out when Pentomic units actually went into battle.

Speaking of, I happened to get this at Goodwill the other day.

Heh, I own that in paperback and pdf form.

[mcchordsage]

I've got my own paper copy now.

[Nowhere Man 1966]

Haven't been here in a while, life has gotten in the way but I'm, very impressed with your work on Twilight 1962/64 here. I am for some reason a junkie on the Cuban Missile Crisis as well as JFK's assassination, but I think for the former, it is a personal tie in with me.

My father served in the Signal Corps fro 1955 to 1957 when he went into the Army at 17. He first went to Korea, did some time in Japan and later, White Sand's New Mexico. I even showed him a quonset hut housing radio gear near Camp Casey on Google Earth where is was caption that is was built in 1955, my father said, "I built that." He flew back on one of the first C-130's. In 1962, my mother was worried that my father would have been called up, back then you did you 2 year hitch and then were on 5 years inactive reserve. 1962 was his last year but when he got his final discharge during the Crisis, Mom was relieved.

My mother also served with the USO at the Air Force Reserve and Penna Air National Guard base where at the time she was there, they were flying P-51's although the F-84's were coming in soon.

Where I lived, down the street from me lived the man who later ran the repair shop for the 112th Fighter group. He had oodles of storied to tell, serving from the days of the P-51's to 1993 when the A-7's where taken out of service. I liked one story where during the Cuban Missile Crisis, there was an unidentified blimp on the radar over Canada and they had to scramble the F-102's to intercept out of Pittsburgh. It was found out it was a 4 piston engine plane where after some hand signal waving, it was determined the radio was out. The fighter pilots told the plane to follow them to the nearest CFB base to land for questioning. The plane lost it's electrical system affecting the radio. This could have kicked off WWIII. During that time, they kept the planes on the tarmac ready to go, the electronics were kept on from ground power and the pilots stood by in 8 hour shifts. When one pilot left and the other one took over, he would fire up the jet for 5 or 10 minutes, check things out and then shut the engine down, replace the fuel used and go into the rec area to watch TV and wait.

Again, good work, I love alternate history.