40mm Beehive round

[Legbreaker]

Anyone see any practical use for this that can't be already done (and probably better) by a simple burst from an automatic weapon
What are your thoughts Paul Can't see it on your site.

[Apache6]

40mm Buckshot round would likely be more lethal

There is an existing 40mm buckshot round that fires 24, 00 buck shot projectiles.

I'm fairly certain 24 pellets of 00 buck is going to do more damage then 18 rounds of .22.

I'm guessing that the "beehive" round is actually a "pepper pot" which has barrels for each of the 18 .22lr rounds. Seems like that would be more expensive and less lethal then the buckshot round.

There is also a variant of the buckshot round with fewer larger 'rubber balls' that is a less lethal crowd control round.

[Legbreaker]

Yes, personally I'm quite dubious about the effectiveness of the .22 projectiles, even though there's 18 of them.
I'm sure like most of us, I've shot my fair share of them, mainly hunting, and it takes a well placed shot to take down anything much bigger than a rabbit. This thing is would be lucky to wound an opponent in body armour, and most likely just annoy them a bit.
That's my opinion of it anyway.

I'm aware of other multi projectile 40mm rounds although never got my hands on any (HEDP, ILLUM, Prac, was about it for me). The flechette and shotgun type rounds surely have to be more effective than this thing though.

One (and possibly only) advantage this has is it's reloadable, provided you've got a supply of .22 available.

[CDAT]

Anyone see any practical use for this that can't be already done (and probably better) by a simple burst from an automatic weapon
What are your thoughts Paul Can't see it on your site.

[ATTACH]4122[/ATTACH]

My only thought is that it is likely to put the rounds much closer together than a 18round burst, but other than that nothing comes to mind.

[Raellus]

I know that LRRPs and SOG recon teams in Vietnam often used cut-down M79 grenade launchers firing buckshot rounds to break contact during engagements. Some point men carried these as their primary weapon (although most preferred something more versatile). LRRP and SEAL point men also sometimes carried 12-gauge shotguns. The reason/principle behind this decision is more or less the same. Maximum dispersal of rounds (at close range) in the shortest period of time, and the psychological impact of the sound of a shotgun blast.

In a burst of automatic fire, unless the shooter is waving the barrel of his weapon around, the rounds tend to follow roughly the same path downrange. A 40mm buckshot, or flechette, or .22 pepperpot round would have more dispersal/wider spread, thereby increasing the odds of a hit. It might not be a fatal or disabling hit (unless the target absorbs multiple projectiles) but it's probably enough to stop them shooting long enough for the good guys to get away. I suppose that a single blast of buckshot, flechettes, or .22 rounds also has quite a negative psychological effect on the recipients.

[Legbreaker]

Recoil generally disperses the rounds in a burst.
This beehive round has 3 inch rifled barrels apparently. Unless they're angled away from parallel somewhat, it's going to have near zero dispersion over what you might jokingly call "effective" range, so the target would be hit with 18 small and rather light soft lead projectiles which will almost certainly just flatten against any body armour.

All that said, would it be fun to shoot Hell yeah! It'd shred paper targets with the best of them!

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I have a vague recollection that this "beehive" round was developed by a small company in the USA several years ago as a novelty round rather than a serious piece of combat ordnance.
Doing a quick check, it would seem that it might have been made as a way to get more variety in 40mm ammo available to US civilians (destructive rounds are apparently very expensive, if they can be found for sale at all).

Also available in 10-rd capacity (with some good images of the whole contraption)

http://www.freewebs.com/grog/10%2022%20review.htm

https://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2009/10/13/the-beehive-hornets-nest-40mm-10x-22lr-adapter/

[Olefin]

Well if you have zombies in your game it sounds great - otherwise not sure how effective it would be

[pmulcahy11b]

There were actually 40mm Beehive rounds manufactured on a limited basis for US Special Ops troops in Vietnam. Some troops felt that they were better than tactical buckshot, but many had more negative opinions -- inadequate spread, poor penetration against the type of huts often encountered in South Vietnamese villages, and the loud whoosh the round produced when the round was fired. Though they quickly passed out of official military service, some are supposedly still in the supply train -- no doubt in a box in a warehouse next to the Arc of the Covenant...

[stg58fal]

The buckshot from a 40mm probably wouldn't have almost any penetration beyond a few meters. Those grenades are extremely low velocity. You can watch the projectile fly thru the air when you fire one. The .22 would most likely have better penetration against basically everything.

Not saying that the round would be particularly useful. It would depend greatly on how common body armor is among your opponents. Against unarmored people, at fairly close range, it'd be a nasty round to get hit by, especially if the barrels were positioned so that all the rounds were hitting in an area not much bigger than the casing.

[Raellus]

The buckshot from a 40mm probably wouldn't have almost any penetration beyond a few meters. Those grenades are extremely low velocity. You can watch the projectile fly thru the air when you fire one. The .22 would most likely have better penetration against basically everything.

I'm no physicist, but doesn't the muzzle velocity have a lot to do with the powder charge in the round Might a 40mm buckshot round have more power in it, and therefore more muzzle velocity upon firing, than a standard 40mm HE round Plus, I reckon that a 4omm HE round is heavier than a handful of OO buck. Wouldn't the weight of the projectiles have something to do with the relative muzzle velocity of a buckshot round v. a 40mm HE round I'm not trying to be snarky here- these are serious questions.

[swaghauler]

I'm no physicist, but doesn't the muzzle velocity have a lot to do with the powder charge in the round Might a 40mm buckshot round have more power in it, and therefore more muzzle velocity upon firing, than a standard 40mm HE round Plus, I reckon that a 4omm HE round is heavier than a handful of OO buck. Wouldn't the weight of the projectiles have something to do with the relative muzzle velocity of a buckshot round v. a 40mm HE round I'm not trying to be snarky here- these are serious questions.

There's an irony that this thread should come up just as I was researching the 40mm (now) M576 Multiple Projectile Round which was mistakenly listed as the "multipurpose round" in several FMs until the 1980's (along with the HE's mistaken 370m effective casualty radius). The Buckshot round actually contains 20 rounds of NUMBER FOUR BUCKSHOT (.24") inside a special sabot with 6 vent holes in it that allow the sabot to fall away without causing the shot to spread. Its velocity is 880ft per second and this presents a fairly anemic shotgun round when you consider that a standard 12 Gauge shell (2 3/4"), which is 18.5mm in bore diameter, holds 27 #4 Buckshot Pellets traveling at up to 1600ft per second.

There is a reason for the anemic loading at HALF the velocity of a normal 12 Gauge loading though. The 40mm M79 and M203 have either an Aluminum or Composite (metal) barrel. They also use a High-Low pressure system that limits rounds to 35,000 PSI upon launch (note that the M320 can handle MUCH higher pressures and longer cartridges). Some 12 Gauge loadings can hit 50K PSI. Thus, the round is "downloaded" to avoid rupturing the barrel or otherwise damaging the weapon. I thought that a better pressure containment could have been used INSIDE the cartridge (a double liner perhaps) but the developers didn't do this. It could be due to recoil (the M576 aught to be fairly tame to shoot) or because they used the space inside the cartridge for the sabot (which acts as both a "full choke" AND a "flight control wadding" to control load expansion). It does compare favorably to a standard 12 Gauge loading from a 20" Full Choke barrel in terms of terminal effects (pellet density and pattern). The round keeps 13 of 20 pellets on a man-sized target at 40meters. The use of #4 is also not unusual in military circles as the Russian KSG-23/TOZ-123 (the TOZ is the civilian smoothbore while the KSG has a rifled barrel) also uses #4 Buckshot in their LIGHT loading (the Heavy Loading uses 0000 Buck by weight of projectile).

It should also be noted that the XM576E2 variant which contained 27 #4 Buckshot pellets spread the width of the 40mm Cartridge (and only a SINGLE PELLET DEEP) performed poorly. It could only keep an average of 6 pellets on a man-sized target at 40 meters and lost HALF of its pellets before 20 meters. This caused the Army to discontinue the E2 variant.

[swaghauler]

The buckshot from a 40mm probably wouldn't have almost any penetration beyond a few meters. Those grenades are extremely low velocity. You can watch the projectile fly thru the air when you fire one. The .22 would most likely have better penetration against basically everything.

Not saying that the round would be particularly useful. It would depend greatly on how common body armor is among your opponents. Against unarmored people, at fairly close range, it'd be a nasty round to get hit by, especially if the barrels were positioned so that all the rounds were hitting in an area not much bigger than the casing.

I have to agree with you on this. The slow reload would be its undoing though.

[swaghauler]

There is an existing 40mm buckshot round that fires 24, 00 buck shot projectiles.

I'm fairly certain 24 pellets of 00 buck is going to do more damage then 18 rounds of .22.

I'm guessing that the "beehive" round is actually a "pepper pot" which has barrels for each of the 18 .22lr rounds. Seems like that would be more expensive and less lethal then the buckshot round.

There is also a variant of the buckshot round with fewer larger 'rubber balls' that is a less lethal crowd control round.

Do you happen to know the designation of this round I keep hearing about it but nobody can give me a designator number. I suspect it is one of the newer rounds that have come out since the M320 was adopted (because it can handle longer and higher pressure rounds than the M79 and M203).

[Legbreaker]

A couple of useful links.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/m576.htm

http://inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/grenade/40mm_ammo.html

Also worth noting the wealth of adaptors/sleeves available allowing use of full sized 12 gauge ammo (and others) which mitigate the high pressure problem.