Shotgun Questions

[WussyDan]

Hey all, looking at an upcoming T2k v2.2 game soon, and I can't make heads or tails of shotgun (buckshot) rules. The idea of treating shot as a 10rd burst at medium range is fine, but I have no idea what the "5x10" under rate of fire in the weapon entries is trying to tell me. Compounding factors, the GM is looking at using a lot of Paul Mulcahy's (excellent) homebrew stuff, but that's further confused me with regard to buckshot.

For instance, a generic PA shotgun firing shot at medium range in standard 2.2 rules has "RoF 5x10" and "Dam 1" listed...which I assume is saying a 10rd burst with each hit doing 1d6 damage, but what is the "5x" indicating Then taking that same shotgun from Paul's rules, the RoF is PA regardless of range, but then has damage listed as either "d6x16" or "2d6x4" for medium range. I'm assuming that's just a different way of representing shot spread, but I'm not sure how to square the rules, or what it's telling me.

Any advice would be welcome, especially from Paul himself if he's so inclined.

[pmulcahy11b]

The buckshot rules are based on 00 buckshot. Each pellet does 1d6 damage. So, if you see "2d6" for buckshot damage, 2d6 pellets hit targets, each of which do 1d6 damage. Shotguns using buckshot are to an extent area weapons; if your targets are at medium range, the number of pellets indicated may hit more than one target, and are treated as automatic weapons fire for this purpose. At short range, all the pellets hit one target (messy!). One my Shotgun Ammo page

http://www.pmulcahy.com/ammunition/shotgun_shells.htm

I have rules for 0 buckshot, different chokes, and IIRC, other shotgun ammo types.

[WussyDan]

Sorry, not trying to be dense, but I'm still not clear on what the "x16" or "x4" is telling me in your rules, nor the "5x" in the standard rules.

[Legbreaker]

...and here's the rest of us trying desperately not to look stupid by asking exactly the same questions!

[Lurken]

...and here's the rest of us trying desperately not to look stupid by asking exactly the same questions!

Damn true.

[pmulcahy11b]

Sorry, not trying to be dense, but I'm still not clear on what the "x16" or "x4" is telling me in your rules, nor the "5x" in the standard rules.

1d6-damage pellets x16 are fired from the barrel. Rtc.

[swaghauler]

Sorry, not trying to be dense, but I'm still not clear on what the "x16" or "x4" is telling me in your rules, nor the "5x" in the standard rules.

If you are looking at the shotguns' MEDIUM RANGE BUCKSHOT ROF, you are looking at the NUMBER OF SHOTS/ACTIONS PER ROUND (the 1st #) multiplied by the number of D6s accounted for by the 00 PELLET LOADING (the 2nd #). This is the number of To Hit rolls you will have at medium range using a 00 Buckshot loading in a single combat round.

My issue with the 10D6 rating is that most 00 buckshot loadings are 9-pellet or 8-pellet loads for standard pressure loadings and 12-pellet loadings for 2.75" Magnum Loadings. 3" Magnum loads run up to 15 pellets and 3.5" hulls will have up to 18 pellets in them (the same as 10 gauge loads).

Just a word of warning about the RAW Initiative/Actions system. You will need DOZENS of D20s and drive yourself crazy running the RAW rules where a person can fire ALL FIVE shots (OR EVEN FIVE BURSTS) at once during their turn. Also, Initiative 6 and 5 PCs will be able to wipe out ENTIRE SQUADS on their turns using Burst Fire.
I modified the RAW Initiative to help both issues. On my lightly modified RAW Initiative, I actually give my players a number of "chips" equal to their INITIATIVE SCORE. I use poker chips but you can use any marker (pennies, checkers pieces, paper chits, etc...). I then have each participant in a firefight surrender one chip on EACH PHASE [of the 6 Phases] and fire ONE BURST or ONE SHOT (I allow semi's two shots) in each PHASE. In essence, I treat each of the 6 Phases as a "1-second mini round." By having the fire broken down by phase, it...

1) Reduces the number of To Hit dice you need for an attack.
2) It reduces the "lethality" of Initiative 6 PCs by interspersing their shots among the rest of the combatants in a fight.
3) It helps hold the interest of the players because each PC is taking an action on EACH PHASE once their Initiative Point (their 1 to 6 score) is reached.
4) It helps the GM keep count of time IF you make every COMBAT ROUND 6 seconds long (instead of 5 seconds) and count each INITIATIVE STEP as 1 second's worth of activity. This is particularly good for the 5-second delays of Frag Grenades or explosive-delay timers.

If you want more information on my take on fire rates, just reference Admiral Lee's thread "Thought's on Initiative," There are a number of good options from the Forum Members posted there.

[swaghauler]

Some Real-World Facts about Shotguns

Here are some real-world facts about shotguns.

Rates of Fire:

The typical rate of fire for a semiautomatic is between 3 tenths of a second and half of a second per round fired based on the shooter's skill. The rate of fire for a pump-action shotgun will vary between 3/4 of a second to 1.5 seconds per shot based on the shooter's skill. An experienced pump gun shooter could fire ONE SHOT PER 1-second INITIATIVE PHASE. An "unskilled or unfamiliar" pump shooter will often have to spend a 1-second Initiative Phase running the pump to chamber a new round. Bolt Action Shotgunners will spend 2 seconds running a bolt shotgun (especially due to the length of the cartridge/hull they are cycling (2.75" to 3").

The rate of fire for Full Auto Shotguns varies quite a bit. The Saiga has a cyclic rate of fire around 600 rounds a minute. The latest generation of AA12 has a rate of fire of from 320 to 350 rounds per minute based on the power of the load in question. The experimental H&K CAW (close assault weapon) had a listed rate of fire with 00 Buck of 375 rounds per minute. The USAS-12 has a rate of fire between 400 and 450 rounds per minute.

The Patterning of Shotguns:

Most larger bores are patterned at between 30 and 40 yards (or meters) and .410 Bores are patterned at between 20 and 25 yards (or meters). The most common pattern is a 30" circle at these distances. Chokes constrict the bore in order to reduce the pattern size; which increases pattern density (the number of pellets in the circle) and therefore, increases the EFFECTIVE RANGE of that load.
Most Buckshot loads will spread about 1" for every yard (or meter) traveled. This means that at 25 meters, the pattern of 00 Buck will be about 2 feet across. Tactical Buckshot (which is designed to hold a tighter pattern) will pattern much tighter and could range from 12" to 18" in diameter at 25 meters. The typical width of a grown man varies between 16" and 22" across. At 100 yards, a typical 00 buck loading will occupy a pattern 100" across. There will be A FOOT OR MORE between each pellet. Needless to say, accuracy will be bad!

Steel Shot is much maligned because it is less dense (and therefore lighter by volume) than lead. This leads to shorter ranges, less pellet density, and less lethal effect (based on momentum) than lead shot.

Rifled Slugs are actually designed for SMOOTH-BORE BARRELS and Sabots are specifically designed for RIFLED BARRELS (which help them shed their sabots).

Shotgun Sights:

The bead sight is preferred by some shooters. It allows you to lead a target while still being able to see it WHILE LEADING IT. I give shotguns (and cannon with AA sights) the ability to NEGATE ONE LEVEL OF DIFFICULTY SHIFT IMPOSED BY TARGET MOVEMENT. This doesn't mean the shooter has it one level of difficulty easier to hit a target; the shooter simply gets to reduce any MOVEMENT BASED PENALTIES by one difficulty level.

Increased Reciever Size in Repeating Shotguns:

Repeating shotguns MUST have enough room in their receivers to accommodate the shell in addition to the components used to feed shells. A Single-Barreled or Double-Barreled Shotgun doesn't need this extra space in the receiver. This means that a Single-Barreled or Double-Barreled Shotgun will have a 2" to 3" LONGER barrel for the same overall length as a Repeating Shotgun. Longer barrels have long kept hunting "Doubles" competitive with "repeaters."

Those are just some common facts about shotguns.

[Legbreaker]

Have to also remember the limited magazine size of shotguns. The HK CAW we all know and love for example has only a 10 round box - two bursts maximum using RAW before running dry and having a horrific level of recoil should you wish to do that. Even the strongest character will have trouble keeping even a semblance of control so chances are only a handful of pellets will hit anything useful despite something like 100 flying through the air.

So, once you apply the necessary modifiers to the burst roll, you're already dropping most of the dice just from the recoil, more for being medium range, perhaps another due to cover, maybe another for movement (more if both are moving) - probably only require 2d20 (using 2.2 rules) to cover all the possible hits (and roll again of course for danger area) from emptying the HK CAW.

I suppose a good question to ask is do the reduced dice apply to the number of shells fired, or pellets in the air I'm thinking the former.

[WussyDan]

Since ya'll are being very accommodating, I'm going to continue being dense, sorry.

Regarding the number of shots being fired per round, don't pump actions limit the number of shots/round to three All shotguns have "5x" listed regardless of action, or even magazine size, especially in the case of break action guns. Is this just a printing error, or am I misunderstanding something

This may have something to do with my unfamiliarity with ballistics, but for Paul's rules, if I'm following correctly, most times the light shot loading (d6x16) is going to do more damage at short range than the heavier load (2d6x4). Is this intentional Average-ish damage is 48 and 24, respectively, for all pellets hitting one target.

[Legbreaker]

Since ya'll are being very accommodating, I'm going to continue being dense, sorry.

Only unasked questions are stupid.

Regarding the number of shots being fired per round, don't pump actions limit the number of shots/round to three

Correct.

This may have something to do with my unfamiliarity with ballistics, but for Paul's rules, if I'm following correctly, most times the light shot loading (d6x16) is going to do more damage at short range than the heavier load (2d6x4). Is this intentional Average-ish damage is 48 and 24, respectively, for all pellets hitting one target.

Yes, that would be about right. You've got a lot more projectiles hitting with the lighter shot. Even if they're all only inflicting paper cuts they're going to add up.
Also need to remember that even the lightest of cover or body armour is going to stop them (except for potential blunt trauma). My usual load when hunting with a shotgun is 4 shot - a medium sort of load in my opinion (others may well disagree). The damage I've seen that do to flesh at near point blank range is mind blowing. 00 or even solid slugs up close in my experience don't inflict such a devastating wound (still VERY nasty though), but certainly increase the effective range and retain hitting power further away than the lighter loads.

[Olefin]

I forgot but does the game or anything Paul has show what the effect is on damage and spread for a sawed off shotgun versus the standard one The absence of choke and the shortened barrel contribute to a wider spread of shot than that of a choked full length gun.

So how does the game take that into effect My character carried a double barreled lupara that my GM ruled was much deadlier at short range than the standard shotgun due to wider spread of shot but not sure if that was a home made rule or if it was per game rules.

[pmulcahy11b]

I forgot but does the game or anything Paul has show what the effect is on damage and spread for a sawed off shotgun versus the standard one The absence of choke and the shortened barrel contribute to a wider spread of shot than that of a choked full length gun.

So how does the game take that into effect My character carried a double barreled lupara that my GM ruled was much deadlier at short range than the standard shotgun due to wider spread of shot but not sure if that was a home made rule or if it was per game rules.

As stated below, I have some rules on different chokes on my Shotgun Ammo page.

[Vespers War]

My issue with the 10D6 rating is that most 00 buckshot loadings are 9-pellet or 8-pellet loads for standard pressure loadings and 12-pellet loadings for 2.75" Magnum Loadings. 3" Magnum loads run up to 15 pellets and 3.5" hulls will have up to 18 pellets in them (the same as 10 gauge loads).

I don't have an issue with this because at close range, they're treated as a single round, while at medium range they're immediately reduced to 7 dice. If you really wanted to, you could treat 12 and 15 pellet loadings as 15-shot bursts (which would get reduced to 10 at medium range) and 18 pellet loadings as 20-shot bursts (reduced to 14 at medium range). All of that's using the Dice Lost Per Range Band Beyond Short on page 203 of v2.2.

Just a word of warning about the RAW Initiative/Actions system. You will need DOZENS of D20s and drive yourself crazy running the RAW rules where a person can fire ALL FIVE shots (OR EVEN FIVE BURSTS) at once during their turn. Also, Initiative 6 and 5 PCs will be able to wipe out ENTIRE SQUADS on their turns using Burst Fire.

Characters doing an ammo dump with a shotgun are going to hit a ton of penalties and not much else. If someone with STR 10 fires a Semiautomatic Shotgun all five times in a single fire action, they've got 5 points of recoil penalty. Each of their bursts is reduced from 10D20 to 7D20 by range, and to -3D20 by recoil penalty ("each shot is treated as a 10-round burst using the automatic fire rules, including the reduction of dice rolled for hits for recoil and range"). At best, they can fire three shots each at 7D20, since 4 shots would reduce each shot to 3d20. Someone with a more average STR 6 can fire two shots at 7D20 or three shots each at 1D20. You'd need someone with STR 12 (roll 12 on 2d6 and use two Secondary Skills on Weight Lifting) to be able to fire all five shots at 1d20 per shot. For all of these, the first shot might be Difficult (at skill level) if an Aim action was previously taken; all other shots will be Formidable (1/2 skill level).

All of the shotguns (other than the CAW) in Infantry Weapons are even worse, because they're Recoil 4 or 5 instead of the 3 of the Semiautomatic in the core rules. You might get off two shots in a fire action with those without eliminating all of the dice through range and recoil penalties.

[swaghauler]

Since ya'll are being very accommodating, I'm going to continue being dense, sorry.

Regarding the number of shots being fired per round, don't pump actions limit the number of shots/round to three All shotguns have "5x" listed regardless of action, or even magazine size, especially in the case of break action guns. Is this just a printing error, or am I misunderstanding something

As Leg already pointed out, you are correct about the pump's RAW rate of fire.
The 5 X 10 on the pump-action shotgun card IS WRONG. It is just one of many errors on the weapons cards. Other errors include...

1) The generic .38 Snubnosed Revolver entry shows a S&W Bodyguard but lists the cylinder as holding 6 rounds. ALL of the J-Frame Smiths (the Chief's Special, the Bodyguard, the Centennial) are 5 round revolvers. The ONE 6-shot .38 Special snubnosed revolver in production during the '90s was the Colt Detective Special (weighing 0.6kg too). The only 6-shot S&Ws on this frame size were in .32 S&W Long chamberings.

2) The M1911A1 has the 10mm listed at 6 rounds in the magazine when .40 Caliber is SMALLER than .45 Caliber in diameter. Most 10mm Autos hold 8 rounds in a standard magazine (7-round in .45). The entry also completely ignores the other major caliber that sold 3 TIMES as many guns the 10mm Auto... The .38 SUPER chambering. This is essentially a "hopped up" 9mm Largo round (with 8 rounds in the mag) that Colt has been building since the 1920s. It was HUGELY POPULAR with IDPA shooters in the '90s because it made "Major Power" with a high magazine capacity (for run & gun events).

3) The generic .22LR Pistol entry shows a Ruger MK II as the typical size/type but then lists 6 rounds for the magazine capacity. Both the Ruger and its competitors The Browning Buckmark, and the Savage pistol ALL hold 10 rounds in the magazine.

4) They give the ROF of the M231 as 5 when a real-world M231 has a cyclic rate of fire in excess of 1200rpm (which would be a ROF of 10).

5) The Scorpion pistol has a cyclic rate of 950rpm but lists a ROF of 5.

6) The RPK has a ROF of 10 but a real-world cyclic rate of 600rpm.

7) The RPK-74 has a ROF of 10 but a real-world cyclic rate of 600rpm.

As you can see, the pump shotgun isn't the only weapon stat that needs "editing."